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TEPaul

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2010, 03:40:04 PM »
Gary:

Read Rule 13-4 carefully and particularly 13-4b. Then read Exception #1 just below it very carefully always considering the actual wording in it.

Can you see that Wie did a single thing in the situation under consideration that in any way at all is reflected in Exception #1 or any of its wording?

Brent Hutto

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2010, 03:42:13 PM »
I suspect the vast majority of male golfers have been guilty of taking a wee in a hazard at some point. I thought it was only a penalty if you did it in the shower.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2010, 03:54:09 PM »
"Tom,
If you followed the thread closely and looked up JVB's comments on the ruling you would know that Michelle said she did it for balance, and that JVB thought the official overstepped in insisting on the penalty."



Garland:

Did JVB actually say he thought the official overstepped in insisting on the penalty?

From JVB's blog, "I believe the officials should have listened to her and given her the benefit of the doubt."
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2010, 04:07:48 PM »
Brent:

Again, one has to really key in on the actual words of Rules to interpret and apply them properly. Taking a wee in a Hazard or in a Water Hazard does not consistute a violation of Rule 13-4 because a wee is not one's hand or one's club and so presumably one's hand or club would not be touching the water in a Water Hazard when taking a wee in it. Obviously we could probably contemplate a scenario when that might happen; for instance if one is standing somewhere above knee-deep in the water in a Water Hazard combined with the fact that one's Schlong is long enough then perhaps one's hand might touch the water in the Water Hazard when holding onto one's Schlong or perhaps shaking it out. But failing that. the precise wording in Rule 13-4 and Exception #1 to Rule 13-4 would preclude a penalty.

Now this contemplates potential scenarios for male golfers taking a wee in a Water Hazard. Even though the Rule of Golf and the interpretation and application of same make no distinction whatsoever between male and female golfers I do not, at this time, want to get into explaining the potential scenarios when a female golfer may touch the water in a Water Hazard when taking a wee in it because frankly I am not completely familiar with how females golfers take wees anyway.

Now, of course the situation would get immeasrurably more complicated when any golfer takes a Wie in a Water Hazard.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2010, 04:09:08 PM »
For those who want to see what John had to say, here is the entry from his blog.

The Golf Channel just concluded showing Michelle Wie appealing the ruling made by the LPGA Rules Officials that she was penalized two strokes for grounding her club in the hazard.

There is no dispute regarding the fact that she grounded her club after making her first shot from the hazard with the ball still in the hazard.  Normally this would be a clear violation of Rule 13-4b.  However, when Wie came into the scoring area, she said that she was trying to prevent herself from falling.  Exception 1 to Rule 13-4 says that “there is no penalty if the player touches the ground  … as a result of or to prevent falling”.

The officials argued that it didn’t look like Wie was about to fall so the Exception didn’t apply.  Decision 34-3/9 gives a lot of guidance on how to make rulings of this kind.  The first thing is to gather the facts.  The fact is Wie did ground her club.  The second is to get the testimony of the player(s) involved.  Wie’s testimony was that she did touch her club to prevent herself from falling.  There was no testimony or fact to dispute that other than the official’s opinion.

Only she knows if she was concerned she might fall and put down the club to prevent falling.  If the official really believes that she wasn’t doing that, as in this case, he could penalize her, but he is also saying that she is not telling the truth or at least mistaken when she says she was trying not to fall.

Wie has certainly had her share of rules issues since she started playing out on the LPGA Tour.  Most have been her fault.

In this case, I believe the officials should have listened to her and given her the benefit of the doubt.

I also believe it was wrong for the LPGA to allow the Golf Channel to broadcast from the trailer.  These kind of things should be conducted in private, not with the entire world looking on.   Wie did a good job of arguing her point, but it seemed the official had his mind made up and wasn’t about to give in to her.  She handled it all with dignity and class.

I think she should have asked for the entire Rules Committee to make the ruling, not just the official who made the original ruling.  That would be within her rights.

The ruling cost her nearly $90,000.


I have met John, in fact we took a USGA seminar together when he scored 100, and I did not, although I was close!  He is a knowledgeable and experienced official with a lot of on course experience.  However, in this case I disagree.

The incident was brought to the attention of a LPGA rules official, Doug Brecht, who then, I believe, assessed a 2 stroke penalty to Wie while she was still out on the course.  (I watched the telecast last night and the announcers intimated the penalty was assessed while Wie was still playing, but were not definitive.)

Wie then asked, as is her right, that the incident be reviewed and all available information about the incident was gathered.  That included, most importantly, Wie's statements and video coverage of the incident.  He had other officials view the video to get their opinion.  He then met We in the scoring tent and they, together with Jim ???, who is the LPGA's senior rules official, reviewed the video several times in the Golf Chanel production trailer.

When Wie asked for a review of the incident, she was asking the Rules Committee at the tournament to undertake the review, and by having three of the officials on-site review the video, the Committee did so, although only two of them dealt directly with Wie. The Committee had gathered all available evidence, including Wie's statements both on the course and in the production trailer, and upheld the penalty.  

When applying the rules, officials will, and should almost always, side with the player, unless there is convincing evidence to the contrary.  In this case they felt there was convincing evidence - the video of the incident.  I must say I watched the video several times myself and would have agreed with the LPGA officials if I was in their shoes, I saw no indication Wie was off balance or that her grounding the club was done to prevent a fall.

As for John's statement about the impropriety of cameras being in the trailer to listen to Wie and the officials, I could not agree more.  I would hope this was a one time occurrence and the LPGA will make clear it will not happen again.

Some have asked/speculated that she may have used the club to balance with later in her play in the hazard and that might negate the penalty.  Under the rules, that is irrelevant, once she grounded the club, she was subject to penalty.  Nothing that occurred later could absolve her of that penalty.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 04:12:32 PM by Dale Jackson »
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

TEPaul

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2010, 04:12:50 PM »
"From JVB's blog, "I believe the officials should have listened to her and given her the benefit of the doubt."


Garland:

Thanks. JVB is one helluva good Rules Official and Rules expert but there is no question there has been, still are and will continue to be some rather distinct differences in philosophies regarding Rules principles and applications between even the best Rules officials and experts and this might be one of those times. Having just looked at that tape I cannot really imagine why JVB would say that about that Rules official and his ruling and decision.

The foregoing might need to get into those philosophical differences, when they evolved and how. I think I know where this thread is heading.

Brent Hutto

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2010, 04:16:05 PM »
Now, of course the situation would get immeasrurably more complicated when any golfer takes a Wie in a Water Hazard.

Agreed. Let's not go there.

But for the rest, I'm reminded of two things. One is the old joke that ends:

"Hmmm, water's cold"
"Yeah, deep too"

And the other is my own comment when taking relief, so to speak, alongside a certain hole at a certain course in Ohio. Another member of the foursome called out from behind my back "Hey, that's an environmentally sensitive area!" to which I replied "It's OK, I'll just put some Gold Bond powder on it".

I guess you had to be there.

Kyle Harris

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2010, 04:24:41 PM »
Brent:

Again, one has to really key in on the actual words of Rules to interpret and apply them properly. Taking a wee in a Hazard or in a Water Hazard does not consistute a violation of Rule 13-4 because a wee is not one's hand or one's club and so presumably one's hand or club would not be touching the water in a Water Hazard when taking a wee in it. Obviously we could probably contemplate a scenario when that might happen; for instance if one is standing somewhere above knee-deep in the water in a Water Hazard combined with the fact that one's Schlong is long enough then perhaps one's hand might touch the water in the Water Hazard when holding onto one's Schlong or perhaps shaking it out. But failing that. the precise wording in Rule 13-4 and Exception #1 to Rule 13-4 would preclude a penalty.

Now this contemplates potential scenarios for male golfers taking a wee in a Water Hazard. Even though the Rule of Golf and the interpretation and application of same make no distinction whatsoever between male and female golfers I do not, at this time, want to get into explaining the potential scenarios when a female golfer may touch the water in a Water Hazard when taking a wee in it because frankly I am not completely familiar with how females golfers take wees anyway.

Now, of course the situation would get immeasrurably more complicated when any golfer takes a Wie in a Water Hazard.

Man 1: This water is cold.
Man 2: And deep.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2010, 04:29:10 PM »
Dale,

I would suggest that it is impossible to know how one senses their balance from observing their actions. I suffer from bouts of vertigo from time to time during which I can walk without anyone knowing anything is wrong all the while feeling that falling and crashing to the floor is eminent.

I also have mentioned an incident I saw in a seniors major. Peter Jacobsen was contending for the title at The Tradition in Portland. He hit to the edge of a water hazard, where he was forced to stand in the water to take his shot. He asked the official if it was OK to ground his club for balance before entering the hazard. While standing next to him (I could be seen on the evening news coverage of his shot), I watched as he repeatedly tapped his club on the ground in the hazard for no observable reason. I was surprised at the leeway he was given.

The shot played on TV that night as the shot that lost him the tournament.

I would suggest again that those concluding they know her balance situation are assuming omniscience on their part. I object strongly to such assumptions.


"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2010, 04:33:05 PM »
I just felt like the longer Michelle argued, the worse she looked. I don't have anything against her personally, but after 10-15 minutes of arguing, it was pretty obvious to me she wasn't going to get anywhere with that official. I think at the point, you're only going to anger the official further to a point where in the future you might not get the benefit of the doubt on anything.

Personally, I think it is a very harsh rule, considering the club was absolutely nowhere near the ball when it was grounded. But those are the breaks, unfortunately.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

TEPaul

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2010, 04:36:08 PM »
Dale Jackson:

That (Post #55) is really a wonderful and totally comprehensive review and explanation of this entire situation as I'm so far aware of it. Your explanation is just as good as one could get in a situational discussion in a USGA Rules seminar.


But here is where the real rub and question comes in a situation like that one!

"When applying the rules, officials will, and should almost always, side with the player, unless there is convincing evidence to the contrary.  In this case they felt there was convincing evidence - the video of the incident.  I must say I watched the video several times myself and would have agreed with the LPGA officials if I was in their shoes, I saw no indication Wie was off balance or that her grounding the club was done to prevent a fall."


I am so glad to see you qualify your remark that Rules officials will, and should almost always will side with the player, with "unless there is convincing evidence to the contrary." The Rules of Golf do state in various Decisions and so forth "In some situations where the facts are not decisive, the doubt should be resolved in favor of the player (Dec. 15-1/2 and 19-14.1;" but that is not the extent of it; there is more as particularly contained in Decision 34-3/9 which is too long to type here but perhaps later I will cut and paste it on here.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2010, 04:42:37 PM »

Personally, I think it is a very harsh rule, considering the club was absolutely nowhere near the ball when it was grounded. But those are the breaks, unfortunately.



Matthew,

as the rule is to do with grounding the club and not to do with the ball then I don't consider this so harsh. Wie is not a hobby golfer she is playing full time and should be aware of the rules. She knows that she has broken one here and she should be gracious enough to accept the penalty. I am sure she would expect this from other players in the field.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2010, 04:48:46 PM »
Dale,

I would suggest that it is impossible to know how one senses their balance from observing their actions. I suffer from bouts of vertigo from time to time during which I can walk without anyone knowing anything is wrong all the while feeling that falling and crashing to the floor is eminent.

I also have mentioned an incident I saw in a seniors major. Peter Jacobsen was contending for the title at The Tradition in Portland. He hit to the edge of a water hazard, where he was forced to stand in the water to take his shot. He asked the official if it was OK to ground his club for balance before entering the hazard. While standing next to him (I could be seen on the evening news coverage of his shot), I watched as he repeatedly tapped his club on the ground in the hazard for no observable reason. I was surprised at the leeway he was given.

The shot played on TV that night as the shot that lost him the tournament.

I would suggest again that those concluding they know her balance situation are assuming omniscience on their part. I object strongly to such assumptions.




Garland, re Jacobson, I cannot comment beyond saying, based on your description, Jacobsen should have been penalized.  Note, however, players are permitted to brush the grass in a hazard.

As for officials being omniscient, while I disagree with that use of the adjective in this context, it is what officials do every time they are required by the rules to gather all available evidence and make a decision that is contrary - and sometimes when supporting - to a player's stated intentions or purpose.

We must gather all available evidence and make a decision based on the evidence that is available.  In the Wie incident the officials were not saying she was lying or trying to cheat, and I concur, she was not.  They were making a decision based on all the information available to them.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

TEPaul

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2010, 04:57:56 PM »
"And the other is my own comment when taking relief, so to speak, alongside a certain hole at a certain course in Ohio. Another member of the foursome called out from behind my back "Hey, that's an environmentally sensitive area!" to which I replied "It's OK, I'll just put some Gold Bond powder on it".

I guess you had to be there."



Yes, it sounds like you had to have been there.  ;)

However, Environmentally Sensitive areas are sort of a different kettle of fish. Playing a stroke from an Enviromentally Sensitive area or standing in one to play a stroke with a ball not in one could be a Rules violation given certain Local Rules designations but just entering one to such as retrieve one's ball may not be. The latter situation would probably be analogous to just taking a wee in one, as you did, in which case the golfer is not likely to be subject to a Rules of Golf penalty even though he may find he ends up in the likes of Sing Sing for it after the round!

The Gold Bond powder thing is situationally completely irrelevent; it would only be the wee itself that counts, persuming the wee preceded the application of Golf Bond powder into the Environmentally Sensitive area.

If you are going to play this game you've just GOT to know the RULES!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2010, 05:26:28 PM »

Garland, re Jacobson, I cannot comment beyond saying, based on your description, Jacobsen should have been penalized.  Note, however, players are permitted to brush the grass in a hazard.

As for officials being omniscient, while I disagree with that use of the adjective in this context, it is what officials do every time they are required by the rules to gather all available evidence and make a decision that is contrary - and sometimes when supporting - to a player's stated intentions or purpose.

We must gather all available evidence and make a decision based on the evidence that is available.  In the Wie incident the officials were not saying she was lying or trying to cheat, and I concur, she was not.  They were making a decision based on all the information available to them.

As an observer of the Jacobsen incident, I concluded that I could not tell what Peter was feeling with his feet. Therefore, I could understand why he was not penalized. This was no brushing of the grass. This was repeated tapping the club significantly on the ground. One interesting aspect is that the club never really stayed on the ground long enough to recover balance if he were slipping. Knowing what I know from this discussion, I would have not penalized Peter either.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2010, 05:31:34 PM »
Garland,
Now that you mentioned the specific incident with Jacobsen I remember watching it live and on replay but do not remember the minutia.
But I have been in that hazard, and it extremely slippery primodialish goo, maybe to the 100th degree. It is quite possible that the repeated tapping of the grass bank was caused trying to maintain balance.

TEPaul

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2010, 05:38:23 PM »
Garland:

Like most all good Rules officials do I think you have to simply specifically look at all the wording in Rule 13-4 to determine precisely what it says and precisely what the words prohibit and precisely what they except. The Rules of Golf do give players some latitude to do things with their feet in Hazards for the obvious reason there is no other way to get into position and to take a stance other than with one's feet. However, Rule 13-4a is pretty specific about what constitutes testing the condition of the hazard even with one's feet.

Jacobsen just significantly tapping the ground inside the Hazard as you describe it most certainly sounds to me like he was in effect testing the condition of the Hazard with his club and nothing more. That is just not permitted, not even a little bit without penalty. It's just amazing how so many touring pros who do this for a living just don't understand some of the nuances or even the principles of the Rules of Golf.

And there is no question at all in my mind from looking at that tape of Wie that she was not touching the Hazard to prevent herself from falling in any way. Looking at that tape it seems to me she was just about completely oblivious that she was even touching the Hazard with her club or what it meant at the time. It looks to me like it may not have even occured to her what it meant that her ball was still in the Hazard. It looks to me like she was treating the situation as if she was through the green or like she would if her ball had gotten out of the Hazard when she touched the ground in that Hazard as she did.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 05:45:06 PM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2010, 05:49:26 PM »

Oops, well at least I saved myself $90,000 and honoured the Rules.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2010, 06:00:45 PM »
Marvelous Melvyn, simply marvelous.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2010, 06:04:01 PM »
...
Jacobsen just significantly tapping the ground inside the Hazard as you describe it most certainly sounds to me like he was in effect testing the condition of the Hazard with his club and nothing more. That is just not permitted, not even a little bit without penalty. It's just amazing how so many touring pros who do this for a living just don't understand some of the nuances or even the principles of the Rules of Golf.
...

On explanation is that Peter didn't know the rules.
Another explanation is that he was savvy enough to get permission before entering the hazard knowing he could ground his club until the official told him to cease and desist.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2010, 06:23:35 PM »
In the long term didn't the officials do her a favor?  Had the penalty not been imposed on the basis of her explanation, her peers and the majority of those who saw the video would rightfully conclude that she was full of it and she would have suffered the same fate as Monty, Vijay and others who have been branded with the scarlet C.  While she appears to have attempted to game the rules in this instance (notice the emphasis on appears), which is obviously not without consequence given the coverage and the dialogue here and elsewhere, it is better than being branded a cheat.

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2010, 06:36:15 PM »
I would like to see more video than the instant after she grounded the club. Perhaps it shows nothing else relevant, but it's impossible to be sure until you see a longer continuation.

The rules official presumes a lot to know her mind on the subject of whether she was losing her balance. The distinction between "actually falling" and "feeling that she was falling" is a false one. If you feel that you are losing your balance and might fall, you are in danger of falling. That's the nature of balance.

In terms of reputation, she would have been wiser to accept the penalty gracefully. But that does not mean that she was wrong.
David Lott

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2010, 07:00:00 PM »
I would like to see more video than the instant after she grounded the club. Perhaps it shows nothing else relevant, but it's impossible to be sure until you see a longer continuation.

The rules official presumes a lot to know her mind on the subject of whether she was losing her balance. The distinction between "actually falling" and "feeling that she was falling" is a false one. If you feel that you are losing your balance and might fall, you are in danger of falling. That's the nature of balance.

Agree with you there David (walking is nothing but a controlled fall), but at some point the rules official does have to make a decision about it - otherwise could not anyone entering a deep hazard ground the club and claim balance?  I would side with the officials on this though.  I understand the benefit of the doubt argument, but in the video I see absolutely nothing to indicate that she was losing her balance or even felt like she was losing her balance.  She was only half holding the club - if she had even put a firmer grip on it I might buy her argument.

Perhaps if the tape ran longer we might see something more about losing her balance, but it would not negate the initial infraction in my mind.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2010, 07:30:11 PM »
I just had another look at the Wie video. Pay attention to her left hand, the only one on the grip. As she grounds the club in the hazard, she semi-releases her grip from five fingers to two or three fingers.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie in water hazard
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2010, 07:34:11 PM »
I just had another look at the Wie video. Pay attention to her left hand, the only one on the grip. As she grounds the club in the hazard, she semi-releases her grip from five fingers to two or three fingers.

That's my point...she was closer to dropping it on the ground than she was to using it for any sort of support.