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Mac Plumart

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Wolf Point
« on: March 26, 2010, 08:11:33 PM »
Ok...

we had a thread on here recently about private clubs getting a bump up in the rankings because of their private nature.  But I think the opposite works as well. 

Case in point, I am looking for courses that I think are "Hidden Gems" and I find Wolf Point in Texas.  Mike Nuzzo's first course design (I think)...it is talked about on this site and in Golf Course Architecture magazine and being mind blowingly good.  But (unless I am mistaken) it isn't ranked in anyone of the major golf course critics Top 100 lists.  In fact, I can't even find it (the course or the club) on the internet.  All I get is Mike's site.  What is up with this course/club?  Is it super duper exclusive, like Nanea?  Why don't the Top 100 guru's have this one on their radar?

Also, is this another Kingsley type of course?  And what I mean by that is a true gem that not everyone seems to recognize.  For instance, I believe Golfweek is the only major rater that has Kingsley in their Top 100, but the people in the know seem to think it is off the charts good. 

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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 08:33:19 PM »
A course with only one member is the very definition of "exclusivity."

Those fortunate enough to play there refer to it as the St Andrews of South Texas,but it's not likely to make any Top x lists.
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 08:34:52 PM »
Bill...

educate me.  One member? 
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 08:43:02 PM »
Bill...never mind...I got it...

"For Wolf Point is a personal golf course in more than one way. Conceived and built for the sole use of its owner and his invited guests, it is also an intensely personal work for its architect"

How cool is that!!!

Edit...even more cool..."costs for the entire course to an astoundingly low US$3m"

This course is totally awesome!!!!  I want one!!!   :)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 08:45:18 PM by Mac Plumart »
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 09:34:05 PM »
Quote from: Mac Plumart on March 26, 2010, 08:43:02 PM
Bill...never mind...I got it...

"For Wolf Point is a personal golf course in more than one way. Conceived and built for the sole use of its owner and his invited guests, it is also an intensely personal work for its architect"

How cool is that!!!

Edit...even more cool..."costs for the entire course to an astoundingly low US$3m"

This course is totally awesome!!!!  I want one!!!   :)

Have you seen the photo tour on Mike Nuzzo's blog/website?  http://www.mnuzzo.com/
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 10:13:57 PM »
Bill...

yes.  and the routing evolution.  it is one of the coolest things I've seen. 

That stuff is what got me interested in the course and confounded me as to why it is not on the Top 100 lists.  It looks beyond amazing...and it looks FUN!!!!

But now I get it.  It is the owners course 100%.  He doesn't care if it is considered in the Top 100.  It is his, he invites his friends, they have fun, it is all good.  Isn't that what it should be about anyway?

Totall awesome stuff!!

Thanks.
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2010, 12:10:50 PM »
 8) What ever happened to Willie Nelson's course?  Did the IRS get it?
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The voice of Inverness"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2010, 02:37:18 PM »
Quote from: Steve Lang on March 27, 2010, 12:10:50 PM
8) What ever happened to Willie Nelson's course?  Did the IRS get it?

All I remember is he once said the first hole was a par 20 and "last week I birdied that sucker!"
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2010, 07:22:31 PM »
Thank you Mac
The team did a hell of a job
3 raters have seen it with instruction not to turn in a rating


Steve
http://www.pedernalesgolfclub.com/index.php
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2010, 07:26:41 PM »
Mac,
The course is very private and for the sole use of the owner. There is no commercial angle whatsoever, pure golf.
As far as top 100, I'm guessing many of the raters would find the greens too severe, the fwys too wide, and grade down the conditioning due to the lack of any attempt at definition or hand work type detail.
I was involved in the construction and I maintain the course so I'm biased, but I think it's one of the greatest golf courses built in the last 25 years. It's a match play course, no one plays stroke play there and if you were to try and grade it by card and pencil then you'd probably downgrade the course because the greens and surrounds are so wicked. But, if you want to have a match with a buddy and keep score one hole at a time, its about as good as it gets.
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Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2010, 08:20:27 PM »
Every time anyone asks me about Wolf Point - and they do quite a lot - I have to remember my reactions to the course and try to reanalyse them. A year on, I have concluded it's really one of the very greatest courses I've seen. I wrote at the time that it might be the best first course by a modern architect I had seen, but that I'd not seen Bandon Dunes, as an obvious comparator. I've since been to Bandon, and, whisper it, I'd rather go back to Wolf Point.
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Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 09:25:23 PM »
Quote from: Steve Lang on March 27, 2010, 12:10:50 PM
8) What ever happened to Willie Nelson's course?  Did the IRS get it?

It's still there, Pedernales Cut & Putt.  9 holer. 

As an aside, it's only about a mile and a half from Austin GC as the crow flies.  Can you imagine a 27 hole day at those two places!?
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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 12:19:21 PM »
 8) If he first hole's a Par 20.. not sure we'd get in more than 9 at Willie's..

Mike: thanks for the willie link..   btw... can one see WP in GoogleEarth or other satellite mapping?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 12:21:32 PM by Steve Lang »
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Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 01:37:51 PM »
Sort of brings up an interesting point about the ratings.  Imagine that over time, even though the owner wants to stay below the radar, that it becomes clear to a number of folks in the know that Wolf Point is in fact the greatest course on earth.  Should it not be included in the rankings? I know you need enough raters and no one's going to want to go against the owner's wishes etc., and virtually nobody will have access, but hypothetically or otherwise, shouldn't it be given it's proper dues?  Or is this the end game of the private vs. public ratings thread?
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2010, 02:49:21 PM »
Jud...

I had very similar thoughts.  I think the best courses need to be recognized for their greatness.
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Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2010, 06:34:54 PM »
I'm biased as well, but it's the most fun course I've ever played.  Seriously.
It is unfortunate for NCD that the owner doesn't care about the accolades and therefore it might not get 'officially' rated.  It'd be most deserving exposure for Mike, Don, and the team involved.  As Adam wrote in his review, "It is a living case study for the future of golf design and construction."

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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2010, 10:29:21 PM »
Steve
Below the course is still growing-in
Bunkers are finished


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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2010, 10:41:26 PM »
Mike,

A few questions.

1)  How wide is the area of the 1st, 4th and 5th fairways? 

2)  8 and 18 are a double green.  18 is an alternate fairway design.  I find this very unique.  Kainly because one fairway usually gives a better approach to certain pins and vice versa.  Being a double green, is the pin for 18 able to be pushed far enough back to make the left fairway on 18 viable? 

3)  Tell us about the tree in the fairway on 14.

Of course I have many others, as the concept of uber wide, uber fun is muy appealing to me.  Thanks Mike.
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Michael Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2010, 03:08:51 AM »
What a great looking course. For those who have played it, where would it rate in the top 100 (assuming it is that good)?

How much acreage is the course set on Mike?

Pup
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Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 09:09:47 AM »
Thank you Michael
No ratings questions please...
I'll say there is 80 acres of irrigation.
How much acreage depends on how you measure.

Ben
I think your plane could land in that area easily...  800'?
By the 18th if the match is still on I'm not concerned with the pin, only the creek.
The left (in the aerial) fairway is most used in a strong wind or with a back tee
The left side is a little shorter
To carry the creek can be iffy, and to shorten the carry, the approach lengthens
There is one other little tree issue out of our hands

The 14th tree
I was going back and forth on which way the fairway should go around that tree.
I thought a tree in the middle would be a little much - over designed
One of our clients initial statements was his like or interest in the big live oaks - I was trying to keep it
Don walks up to me one day and says - why don't we leave it in the middle
I figured it he didn't think it was campy we were good
I like the tree now
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2010, 09:37:45 AM »
I think the right side of #18 fairway - where you don't have to worry about the carry over the creek  ::)  would be my play next time. 
Good thing I had already won my match!

There are so many really good holes out there, it was fun to trace the routing.
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Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2010, 10:30:18 AM »
Behold the Infierno!!
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2010, 12:28:50 PM »
Quote from: Wyatt Halliday on March 31, 2010, 10:30:18 AM
Behold the Infierno!!

...and Tremble!   :o

I made a great bogey there - short in two, pitched over the green to a very tight back right pin......hanging over the creek, chopped out of thick rough, up and down.   Oh yeah!  #5 toughest par4?  Or does #17 get that honor?
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2010, 12:43:44 PM »
I butchered 17 both times round, but I still think the fifth is tougher. I just can't see how you get the ball on the green in two unless your drive is massively long and flirts very deeply with Infierno. Flying it in from the left and sticking it would be impossible for me, and running it through the rumples and up the bank hardly any more feasible.
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Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wolf Point
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2010, 12:50:25 PM »
Adam, the toughest thing about #17 is the mental challenge of driving as close as possible to the chasm left - otherwise you are quickly left with a VERY long second shot.

That's a great finishing stretch.
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