Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[TEPaul]

MacWood:


Opa Locha golf course was part of a "concept" community known as Opa Locka that Glen Hammond Curtiss, the aviation pioneer, created (both the course and the town/community). It became a town in Florida. The golf course was part of a community course and may not have been open to play other than residents of Opa Locka. As such it probably should not be considered a public golf course. You or any other researcher should probably take the time and make the effort to find out about these historic ramifications and distinctions rather than depending on a single word in some golf course listing publication as apparently you just did above? To suss out the accurate historical details of some of these courses one needs to be a bit more research detail oriented than apparenly you are!

I've said it perhaps 25 times on this website, but you are pretty good at coming up with all kinds of trivial and extraneous research material (it appears you seem to think that alone makes you a good researcher/historian ) but you have unfortunately been a virtual disaster at analyzing and figuring out what it really means!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I'm sorry I don't follow your practice of ignoring the info if it doesn't match your perception or proposed theory.

http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/docs/g/golfcrs.htm

[TEPaul]

Thanks for the hyperlink but we actually do contemporaneous historical reasearch on golf courses and their creation histories instead of depending upon modern-day WEBSITES like that hyperlink you just posted and apparently depend on. You're funny, Tom MacWood, as your research and the information you apparenly base your opinions and posts on is laughable.

Who was it again you suggested designed Merion East? Was it HH Barker due to a train trip schedule from New York to Georgia in December 1910?   

Uh Huh, right! Really intelligent research and analysis, THAT! 

[DMoriarty]

MacWood:
Opa Locha golf course was part of a "concept" community known as Opa Locka that Glen Hammond Curtiss, the aviation pioneer, created (both the course and the town/community). It became a town in Florida. The golf course was part of a community course and may not have been open to play other than residents of Opa Locka. As such it probably should not be considered a public golf course. You or any other researcher should probably take the time and make the effort to find out about these historic ramifications and distinctions rather than depending on a single word in some golf course listing publication as apparently you just did above? To suss out the accurate historical details of some of these courses one needs to be a bit more research detail oriented than apparenly you are!

I've said it perhaps 25 times on this website, but you are pretty good at coming up with all kinds of trivial and extraneous research material (it appears you seem to think that alone makes you a good researcher/historian ) but you have unfortunately been a virtual disaster at analyzing and figuring out what it really means!

What a joke.  TEPaul claims that Opa Locka "may not have been open for play other than residents of Opa Locka" then jumps to "it probably should not be considered a public course."  

Based on nothing more than this, he then has the nerve to berate MacWood for sloppy research and even accuse him of being a "virtual disaster at analyzing and figuing out what it really means!"  But never mind taking two or three minutes to check the facts.   Not when TEPaul is determined to paint Tom MacWood as incompetent!  It is much easier to pretend the facts are as he wants them to be, essentially just making shit up!  

The problem is that, as usual, TEPaul doesn't know what he is talking about.  Opa-Locka was a municipal course, at least according to multiple articles in the Miami papers, including the June 13, 1928 Miami News: "Jimmy Thom was named professional of the new Opa-Locka golf course . . ..  The appointment . . . now gives Miami two active munipal golf courses. . .."

One thing is for certain, while TEPaul's attempted criticism completely misses its intended mark, it speaks volumes about his own competence, research skills, and analytical abilities.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I NEVER stated that YOU claimed it was about municipal golf courses. I stated that MIKE originally used the word "MUNI'S" in the title and therefor he wanted to discuss courses of that type. That is the reason for my statement and my disagreement over its inclusion in your list.

I can easily provide the documentation about Beavertail including photos of both the course and clubhouse (private home of the owner). Unfortunateky I am out-of-town and can't access my files. Still, I DID provide earlier documentation for you in this thread on the subject when I first brought it up. I brought it up again because you posted the drawing from Daniel's book and I think that for the simple sake of accuracy it must be understood what the history of the course actually was.

I am not going to respond to post #174 since I have already done so NUMEROUS times. It is disningenuous of you to write that "By the way we are still waiting for you to respond to post 174" when each time that I did YOU RESPONDED to what I wrote. So HOW can you be waiting for me to respond when you know I have. I have no problem at all providing numerous articles that speak to the ssuperiority of the Blue course and, in fact, told you so earlier in the thread. I stopped posting examples because you refused not only to not answer a number of questions I posed to you but ignored them completely despite the numerous times I asked them. And before you ask, you can look them up yourself...

[TEPaul]

Well, alright, Moriarty, I will give you the fact Opa Locka could've been legitimately considered a municipal golf course given the fact Glen Hammond Curtiss created the entire MUNICIPALITY of OPA LOCKA (community and municipality of Opa Locka and the golf course) as a "concept community"! But did that mean the course was open to all public play other than those living in Opa Locka?

If that fits into your petty, trivial and no-count argumentations on this particular thread, then go for it! After-all, that's about all you've ever been good for on this website.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil & TEP
This thread was better, more interesting, and more informative when you were posting *. Get with the program.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Obviously you have an incredibly inflated opinion of your posts and opinions on here, but I'm afraid most have known that on here and for quite some time now.

We deal with the real world, like the clubs and their memberships and friends with these subjects and it seems since you never go to them or get involved with them or establish any kind of relationship with them you never do anything like that and consequently your "community" on here seems to be pretty much limited to David Moriarty which definitely is NOT something any serious or competent golf architectural historian would claim or be proud of!

The bad blood or whatever it is between you two with me, or Cirba, or Morrison, or most of the rest of us here or perhaps Philadelphia generally has been very obvious and I fully admit my interest and intention with you two is to limit and minimize your credibilty wherever and whenever I can, and I expect that will be ongoing. At this point, I feel, thankfully with the help of numerous others, that to date we have been roundly successful in that effort!

[DMoriarty]

Well, alright, Moriarty, I will give you the fact Opa Locka could've been legitimately considered a municipal golf course given the fact Glen Hammond Curtiss created the entire MUNICIPALITY of OPA LOCKA (community and municipality of Opa Locka and the golf course) as a "concept community"! But did that mean the course was open to all public play other than those living in Opa Locka?

If that fits into your petty, trivial and no-count argumentations on this particular thread, then go for it! After-all, that's about all you've ever been good for on this website.

Wrong again.  You just don't get it, do you?  It was a Miami municipal golf course, along with Miami Springs.   But go ahead and keep throwing insults my way, while at the same time proving you couldn't research your way out of a library.  

[TEPaul]

Moriarty, the very last thing I ever need to do is even attempt to justify myself or what I do or have done in golf or what I know about golf and golf course architecture, golf administration or frankly anything connected to golf and its history to some insecure little argumentative light-weight nitwit like you!

If you don't understand that or don't think it's true, then let me ask you what in the world have you ever done for a golfer or golfers, or a golf club, golf architectural research, analysis or writing or anything else of the kind?

Don't use this website as your ridiculuous little platform to do whatever the hell it is you think you are doing or can do on here in your petulant attempts to criticize people like me. Get into the real world of golf and when you do just ask around who I am and where I've been and what I know----that is if you even EVER have the vaguest idea who to ask, which frankly I doubt!

[DMoriarty]

Moriarty, the very last thing I ever need to do is even attempt to justify myself or what I do or have done in golf or what I know about golf and golf course architecture, golf administration or frankly anything connected to golf and its history to some insecure little argumentative light-weight nitwit like you!

If you don't understand that or don't think it's true, then let me ask you what in the world have you ever done for a golfer or golfers, or a golf club, golf architectural research, analysis or writing or anything else of the kind?

Don't use this website as your ridiculuous little platform to do whatever the hell it is you think you are doing or can do on here in your petulant attempts to criticize people like me. Get into the real world of golf and when you do just ask around who I am and where I've been and what I know----that is if you even EVER have the vaguest idea who to ask, which frankly I doubt!

Jeez Tom.  This makes absolutely no sense.   Open a second bottle a little early tonight?   

It is simple.   You don't know what you are talking about.   Next time you want to attack someone, do yourself a favor and spend three minutes researching the matter first.  Is that really an unreasonable request?

[TEPaul]

Again, Moriarty, there is no conceivably way someone like me needs to justify anything I say or do on here to someone like you! If you don't believe me then just start asking around to some people who actually are in golf. Your last post with your insinuations about a bottle or whatever is not even worth or deserving of a response from someone like me to someone like you; that's pretty much just the way it is. If you don't believe it, then just try getting actually involved in golf, in a golf club, in committees, with a memberhip, in researching architecture and history FOR clubs and their memberships and in golf administration for golfers and clubs and their memberships. If you did even YOU might actually learn some things, some things about golf, about golfers, about golf architecture, about golf administration and perhaps even about human nature you apparently don't now know.

Have you even begun anything like the foregoing? If you have then please tell me about it and what it is and perhaps I might understand you better.

Try that tack for a change and that may not be a bad start after-all.

And for God Sake's please do not cite as your contribution to golf and golf architecture that ridiculuous essay about Merion entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion." THAT is a total joke to anyone and everyone who has anything to do with that club or who knows its history and membership.

So, what have you got Moriarty? We're all ears, I'm sure.

[DMoriarty]

What the hell are you talking about?  

Let's review:  You made up some facts to try and berate Tom MacWood.  Ironically, your research was non-existent and your facts all wrong, and your post was only an indictment of you.

From that you lecture me about what, exactly?  

You bore me, Tom.   Go rant somewhere else so we can get back to what was becoming an interesting discussion.

[TEPaul]

What I am talking about Moriarty has nothing whatsover to do with your trivial, inconsequential ramblings on that last post of yours. Read your previous one a bit more carefully, if you're capable, and you may get some glimmer of what my last post was all about.

But do not let me disabuse you in any way whatsoever! My interest and intention on this website and elsewhere, at this point, and until convinced otherwise, and due to your constant insults to me, my friends here and by implication my city and its golf architectural history, is to limit and minimize your credibility with and about golf course architecture wherever and whenever and to whomever I can! And if that impacts negatively what you seem most concerned about----your reputation----let me assure you that is precisely what I intend to do at any time and in any way and with anyone I can.

You deserve it, and not only in my opinion but in the opinions of many both within and without this website, and you continue to prove you deserve it by just about every post you make on here to everyone and particularly those from this city.

[DMoriarty]

What I am talking about Moriarty has nothing whatsover to do with your trivial, inconsequential ramblings on that last post of yours. Read your previous one a bit more carefully, if you're capable and you may get some glimmer of what my last post was all about.

But do not let me disabuse you in any way whatsoever! My interest and intention on this website and elsewhere, at this point, and until convinced otherwise, and due to your constant insults to me, my friends here and by implication my city and its golf architectural history, is to limit and minimize your credibility with and about golf course architecture wherever and whenever and to whom ever I can! And if that impacts negatively what you seem most concerned about----your reputation----let me assure you that is precisely what I intend to do at any time and in any way and with anyone I can.

You deserve it, and not only in my opinion but in the opinions of many both within and without this website, and you continue to prove you deserve it by just about every post you make on here to everyone and particularly those from this city.

All this because you again spouted off without getting your facts straight?   

Go to bed, Tom.   You are embarrassing yourself.

[TEPaul]

Thankfully the only fact (or in your bizarre terminology "PHACT" or "PHUCKING PHACT") you have ever ACTUALLY enlightened me on is that Wilson went abroad in 1912.

That was an interesting one indeed if one's into trivia, but unfortunately for you, what you tried to USE that inconsequential fact to construe you were both caught at and roundly embarrassed for in the greater world of sophisticated golf architectural interest and understanding.

It seems that is a blunder we caught you up on you will never get over. I can't say I blame you really, knowing you on here, as I do!  

[DMoriarty]

Thankfully the only fact (or in your bizarre terminology "PHACT" or "PHUCKING PHACT") you have ever ACTUALLY enlightened me on is that Wilson went abroad in 1912.

That was an interesting one indeed if one's into trivia, but unfortunately for you, what you tried to USE that inconsequential fact to construe you were both caught at and roundly embarrassed for in the greater world of sophisticated golf architectural interest and understanding.

It seems that is a blunder we caught you up on you will never get over. I can't say I blame you really, knowing you on here, as I do!  

More on Merion?   Geez Tom, get over it!  Either that or finally address the substance in an IMO.   Because as it is, my essay stands virtually unscathed.

Besides, I am sure we are all tired on your endless petty and insecure jabs on the topic.

[TEPaul]

"Because as it is, my essay stands virtually unscathed."





Yes it does if all one counts is about less than half a handful of people that includes you!

I might've written an IMO if your essay had at least up to ten to twenty advocates and believers but it doesn't that I'm aware of so what's the point in me doing an IMO piece about it?

As I mentioned on here, I considered that when it first came out but that was before all the people we care about and appreciate with architecture read it and saw its illogical transparency. As far as me getting over Merion or not mentioning it in connection with you heretofore, I don't see why I should do that. After-all, I think it's pretty clear on here that THAT ESSAY and your continuing follow-up on this website pretty much defines you! 

[Tom MacWood]

Here is Flynn's plan for the 6th at Opa-Locka - a very interesting design, a variation of the Channel Hole at Lido.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tmac,

Interesting plan.

I have to wonder if anyone ever went left, though. The short cut looks easier to attain from the tee, and the green may not be guarded enough, IMHO. 

Thanks for posting that historic info.   If you have more, it would probably be better put on a separate thread discussing architecture specifics of a nice public course, rather than being lost in this overly long thread.

[TEPaul]

Jeffrey:

I've always felt the same way about that mirror image hole of Flynn's of Macdonald's Lido Channel hole (apparently Tom MacWood actually read that part of Wayne Morrison's first draft and understood it for a change). It's hard to tell exactly how a particular hole will play out from a two dimensional plan vs seeing the hole on the ground in three dimensions but the point of the Channel Hole (at the Lido) to me was the high-risk option was directly in line with the tee and the green while with Flynn's iteration it is way out to the left where Macdonald's safe play fairway was.

[Tom MacWood]

This is from the 1931 Golf Guide.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

That is correct. It is from the 1931 golf guide. It is NOT indicative of the availability for use by the public the day it opened. They weren't allowed.

Once again you misinterpret what you've read and wrongly apply it...

[Tom MacWood]

This is an excerpt from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links. Apparently the course was open for daily fee play from the very beginning.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
By the way the Salisbury Links on my list has always been dated 1908, the first course of the Eisenhower Park complex was built some time in the teens. Also I added the locations on my list a few days ago and my Salisbury was located in Garden city. I don't believe EP is technically in GC.

I was a little surprised by your confusion, not totally surprised, just a little surprised.