Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[Dan Herrmann]

::sigh::

[TEPaul]

"The reasoning behind the list was to show the depth and breadth of very good public golf courses in America during the period in question, and to show how ridiculous Mike's claim was.

Do you think Cobbs Creek was a better and more difficult course than Opa Locka, Sharp Park, Sunset Fields, Belvedere or Starmount Forest? I don't. In fact I think CC would be lucky to make it into the middle of this pack."



THAT is still JUST your opinion, Bucko, and unfortunately for you, your opinion has depreciated considerably and continues to! 

[TEPaul]

Actually all this endless jabbering on both sides of the debate is ridiculous and irrelevent as anyone of real architectural sophistication knows that Fernandina Beach Municipal, by the phenonenal Timucuan Indian architect, Tommy Birdsong, is the best public golf course ever done in any era.

[DMoriarty]

For the record, what I said, which continues to get twisted and misrepresented, is that before the Depression (pre 1930) and the subsequent creation of Bethpage,  many observers felt that Cobb's Creek was the best and most demanding public course in the country.   I think the facts support that statement, and the articles I posted from the New York and Philly papers, and the opinion of the leading public course player and former US Publinks champion all support that contention.

 
". . . many observers felt . . .?"  For the record, that is NOT what you said.   Plus, one does not "many" make.

As for your 36/30 switcharoo, I suggest you review posts 90 and 91, where PPallotta asked: "Would the courses that the USGA picked to host the Publinx Championship during these years give us any indication of what courses were considered amongst the best of their day?"  
You answered:  "That's a great question.   Here are the years in question."    You then listed the publinks winners to 1936.  

Funny how your "years in question" went to 1936 early in the thread, but not now.  

No one yet has cited any other public course in that era having the same cache', nor despite what I'm sure has been exhaustive research have we seen an article making the same type of claims about any other public courses, although I'm sure that statement might lead to another spin thru newspaperarchive.com.

You are wrong again.   It would be easy enough find comparable articles about other courses.  (I probably have some in files somewhere.)  But I am not interested in debating which public course was the best or hardest, and I know to take assessments for the local paper with a grain of salt.   I find the whole idea of you claim absurd unless I could back it up with a comprehensive survey of ALL the contenders, and even then it would just be a matter of opinion.   That is what I said in my second post on this thread, and what I still believe.  

I don't have the knowledge base to put together a comprehensive survey.  For example, my list would be West Coast centric and of those I couldn't pick an absolute best even in the West.  And although the Mid-West reportedly emerged as the real leader in public golf during this period, I could not do that region justice.

[Dan Herrmann]

More info on Tommy Birdsong (a real hero):  http://peoplelikeusdublinlaurens.blogspot.com/2009/08/tommy-birdsong.html

[Mike Cirba]

*

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Dayton? If we were rate these courses on quality do you believe Dayton would be near the top of the list?

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris

[DMoriarty]

Dan,  Thanks for the link.   Nice to have some reality to offset TEPaul's repeated snarky posts and references.

_____________________________


Mike Cirba,

Go ahead and explain all that to Mike Cirba, who, in post 91, identified the courses in question as running to 1936, which is probably a pretty accurate date for when the WPA courses started to come online.

As for the opinion of this one guy, that would bring your total to two (which still does not many make), except for the fact that he certainly can't speak to any of the many courses built after 1925 and we have no idea where he had played before this, except for the few he mentions.  Did he play on the West Coast?  The Publinks didn't make it out there until 1933.

An aside.  It is generally a good idea to take reports coming from New Yorkers about New York Municipal golf with a grain of salt during this era.  They reportedly had a running battle  going with the City about the quality and conditions of the NY munis.   The courses reportedly ran at a surplus, but the money did not come back to the courses, even when the rates were jacked up to $10 dollars.  

[Mike Cirba]

*

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You really like beating that dead horse don't you?

I made a mistake with Harding Park as I have admitted about five times now; I did not a make mistake with the Red and Black.

Here is a link from the USGA as to which courses have hosted the event and it clearly says Bethpage-Blue. The Red and Black have never hosted the event. Other courses that have never hosted the USGA Public Links: George Wright, Starmount Forest, Swope Park, Memorial Park, Taconic, Patty Jewett, BeaverTail, Mill Creek and Bayside.

http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/USGAHome/press_room/media_guide/06APL(2).pdf

[DMoriarty]

Nice try Mike, but it is you who is misrepresenting what you stated.  Your identification of the years in question in post 91 had absolutely nothing to do with Tom MacWood.  It was in response to Peter's question and in that response you identified the years in question.

As for Walsh, that would be no more unreasonable than assuming he was knowledgeable about every public in the country, including those not yet built.

[Sean_A]

Mike
Dayton? If we were rate these courses on quality do you believe Dayton would be near the top of the list?

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

Does anybody else get the impression that this list of worthy publics is impossibly long?  I for one am not buying that anywhere near all of these courses were considered exceptional unless we are talking some sort of mystical "its okay because its public" PoV.  I can point to Rackham as an example.  Yes, it hosted a Publinx, but I would be wholly surprsied if it was considered a top 7 course in Metro Detroit in 1930 and there weren't 7 really good courses in Detroit in 1930.  

Ciao  

[TEPaul]

"Mike
You really like beating that dead horse don't you?"


Tom MacWood:

You should talk! The only one on this website who likes beating this dead horse more than you do is your twin-ego Moriarty.

[Mike Cirba]

*

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Speaking of Starmount Forest doesn't this little blurb sound familiar...admittedly Gene Sarazen and Sam Snead are no Mike Cirba, but certainly they saw a few golf courses in their time.

I've also attached one on East Potomac, and Pond gave Potomac Golf Course a B grade. I'm not sure if that is East or West Potomac. Neither man played Rock Manor, its inclusion was based on comments from Wilfred Reid. None the less I'm taking both courses off the list. I don't think the match the quality of the other courses.

[Tom MacWood]

I can point to Rackham as an example.  Yes, it hosted a Publinx, but I would be wholly surprsied if it was considered a top 7 course in Metro Detroit in 1930 and there weren't 7 really good courses in Detroit in 1930.  

Ciao  

I'm not sure what the number of good golf courses in Detroit has to do with the list considering there is only one course from Detroit on the list, but I would dispute your comment about the number of quality courses in Detroit in 1930: CC of Detroit, Indianwood, Detroit GC N&S, Oakland Hills N&S, Franklin Hills, Plum Hollow, Aviation, and Colony. That is ten and I think there may have been a few more.

[Tom MacWood]

I'm taking off East Potomac and Rock Manor. There are 64 courses on the list; 46 were built in 1925 or later.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris

[Dan Herrmann]

David, My post about Tommy Birdsong was a compliment to  Tom Paul's golf history knowledge, not a knock.

Tom M - When did Starmount Forest Country Club go private?  The following quote from their website suggests that they MAY have always been private:
"Dating back to its beginning in 1930, Starmount has become the distinguished country club of the Greater Greensboro area service our members' every needs.  Our 6,600-yard golf course provides challenges to the most avid golfers, and has hosted numerous professional and Pro-Am golf tournaments, including the 2007 North Carolina Amateur Tournament."

Mike Cirba - while you're in Far Hills, be sure to spend some time on the putting green and in the history center.  It really is a fantastic place, and I'm sure you'll love your week there

[TEPaul]

"Does anybody else get the impression that this list of worthy publics is impossibly long?  I for one am not buying that anywhere near all of these courses were considered exceptional unless we are talking some sort of mystical "its okay because its public" PoV."


Sean:

Oh yeah; count me in on that. It's not just ridiculously long but it also seems completely pointless and irrelevent to me if it is MacWood's attempt to refute Cirba's statement that he believes Cobbs Creek was the best municipal course in the country in some timeframe. But you know me; I've felt most everything MacWood and his sidekick Moriarty have said on here in the last seven years or so, particularly about anything to do with Philadelphia golf is pointless and irrelevent.

Even the time frame itself has been debated and who said what about that has been debated for about the last ten pages.

[TEPaul]

"David, My post about Tommy Birdsong was a compliment to  Tom Paul's golf history knowledge, not a knock."


Danderino:

Haven't you noticed how Moriarty has always had an interesting way of distorting even a compliment by someone to someone else as an example of a snarky comment or reference being pointed out? That's apparently his REALITY, don't you know?  

[Dan Herrmann]

Sean,
Like I said in post 347:
Tom M,
What was your rationale for the list of courses you provided in post 296?

You failed if you tried to prove that CC wasn't one of the top public courses by evidencing that list.  That list, if anything, hurts your argument, IMHO.

---------
Tom Paul - Actually, I just looked up 'snarky'.  It's actually a compliment: Snarky: Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse

Color Me Amused

[TEPaul]

Yes, MikeC, when you're in Far Hills be sure to spend plenty of time on that putting green. The most prominent and complex mound fairly near the center of that mammoth green is known as "Mont Paul."   

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul - Actually, I just looked up 'snarky'.  It's actually a compliment: Snarky: Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse,"


Thank you for that definition. I guess that means just another in a long laundry liist of things Moriarty is wrong about on here since there is very little chance that twit could bring himself to compliment anything I said.   

[Tom MacWood]

David, My post about Tommy Birdsong was a compliment to  Tom Paul's golf history knowledge, not a knock.

Tom M - When did Starmount Forest Country Club go private?  The following quote from their website suggests that they MAY have always been private:
"Dating back to its beginning in 1930, Starmount has become the distinguished country club of the Greater Greensboro area service our members' every needs.  Our 6,600-yard golf course provides challenges to the most avid golfers, and has hosted numerous professional and Pro-Am golf tournaments, including the 2007 North Carolina Amateur Tournament."

Mike Cirba - while you're in Far Hills, be sure to spend some time on the putting green and in the history center.  It really is a fantastic place, and I'm sure you'll love your week there

Dan
I'm not sure when it went private. In Bob Labbance's biography of Stiles he indicates the course was still public in the 1940s and 1950s, and struggling with maintenance in preparation of Greensboro Open.

[Tom MacWood]

Dan
While you've got the dictionary out you should look up the word 'sycophant.'