Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[Tom MacWood]

Here is an article on Ridgewood in Cleveland from 1927.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is map of the golf course.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Again, not a thing against rich people, who I'm quite sure were able to easily pay the $3 or $4 per round freight at Montauk.

By contrast, many of the courses I'm calling "public" were either free, or had a locker fee of $1 for the year, or some such thing, but they were meant to be the golf courses for all of the public, not just the upper crust.   There is no way the average guy could afford to play courses like Montauk, Cleveland Heights, Pasadena, Salisbury, and other exclusive vacation communities built for the wealthy that you're calling public courses.

I just think you need to be consistent in your comparison, and since theoretically, if as an average American-working guy in 1927  I could somehow manage to motor or yacht out to the Hamptons and over to Montauk, I could then afford a day or two's pay to  play, I wouldn't need to stay at the hotel, and could theoretically sleep on my yacht (or the beach) yet walk up and play, so it's not a resort course.   I think you should add it.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Again, not a thing against rich people, who I'm quite sure were able to easily pay the $3 or $4 per round freight at Montauk.

By contrast, many of the courses I'm calling "public" were either free, or had a locker fee of $1 for the year, or some such thing, but they were meant to be the golf courses for all of the public, not just the upper crust.   There is no way the average guy could afford to play courses like Montauk, Cleveland Heights, Pasadena, Salisbury, and other exclusive vacation communities built for the wealthy that you're calling public courses.

I just think you need to be consistent in your comparison, and since theoretically, if as an average American-working guy in 1927  I could afford to motor or yacht out to the Hamptons and over to Montauk, I could then afford a day or two's pay to  play, I wouldn't need to stay at the hotel, and could theoretically sleep on my yacht (or the beach) yet walk up and play, so it's not a resort course.   I think you should add it.

Mike
Montauk is not on the list.

Lakeland, Florida and Garden City, NY are exclusive vacation communities?

Mine is a list of public golf course, and I do not discriminate by what you perceive to be high end vs low end.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

How are you calling Montauk a resort and not Pasadena, for example?   What distinction are you making?

You didn't have to stay at the hotel to play there.

[Tom MacWood]

Because Pasadena was not affiliated with a hotel or resort.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I've already shown that when the hotels stopped funding the golf course at Pasadena, it shuttered it's doors and visa versa.

To say there was no economic connection between the two is to deny their history.   

[Tom MacWood]

What article are you referring to?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

If this isn't economic dependency I'm not sure what qualifies.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BGoxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zE0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6756,5279995&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ybEtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FdgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5744,1899676&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9ZkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3570,1152232&dq=golf+pasadena+hotel+petersburg&hl=en

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks for the info on Ridgewood, Tom.

That to me is a public course.

It was not built to sell high-end homes, nor fill resort hotel rooms, at least as it's primary economic and recreational purpose, and had no such economic dependencies.

I'm sure it could be played by the average Clevelander, and it looks to have been a fine golf course.

Do you see the distinction I'm making?

[Tom MacWood]

Economic dependency? You have a very broad definition of what constitutes a resort.

So now we are on to class warfare?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Why keep trying to characterize my points in a negative way?

If only the top 1-5% of golfers in terms of income or wealth could play these places, how "public" were they?

They were simply exclusive resort communities, with a hotel structure (sometimes one, sometimes a few) built in for vacationers, all sorts of recreational amenities including golf, and a real estate component built in to drive and sustain long-term revenues.

I have nothing against it and many courses built in the past 25 years followed the same model.   I just find it inaccurate and a little silly for you and David to claim that these were courses built for the "public".

No biggie...it's your list, but I'm just pointing out that it's apples and bananas at present.    I also have a hard time understanding your distinctions when you add Beaver Tail and Pasadena yet omit Montauk Downs.   Could you explain the differences?

I also think you're the one who is discriminating against the very richest folks with your purposeful and unsubstantiated exclusion of the Hamptons Yachting Set by refusing to add the public course at Montauk Downs to your list.  Is this outrage the result of your long-running feud with Tom Paul?    

Thank God one of these high-end resort communities wasn't built on the Main Line outside Philly, or I can't even imagine the hurdles the course would need to cross to make your list!?!    

[Mike Cirba]

Hey Tom...where's Marble Hall?

[TEPaul]

In the beginning Flynn was one of the owners of Marble Hall. It was open to all golfers except people who owned yachts. When asked why he was discriminating against rich people Flynn said it wasn't that he didn't like rich people, it was just that he didn't like water so by association he didn't like people who liked water. When the reporter asked Flynn why he didn't like water Flynn told the reporter to ask W.C. Fields that question.

[Tom MacWood]

I believe Marble Hall was a private club before converting to public.

[TEPaul]

"I believe Marble Hall was a private club before converting to public."


That figures with your track record of architectural historical inaccuracy and misinterpretations.

It was the exact opposite. It was a course created in 1924 for public play. It remained as that for many years until eventually converting to Green Valley, a private club and course. Flynn owned and built Marble Hall and it was for the public and also doubled as something of a agronomic experimentation station with Toomey and Flynn's Metropolitan bent grass (the so-called vegetative planting process). From 1932 to 1941 Toomey and Flynn's primary foreman, William Gordon, managed the facility. In the early 1940s William Gordon founded the Pennsylvania Public Golf Association (PPGA), a golf and tournament association for public golfers.

A trivia point on Gordon:  Mr Geoffrey Cornish once told me that had it not been for William Gordon's suggestion he may never have thought to write that wonderful tome on architecture---"The Architects of Golf."

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Tom Paul is correct.   Marble Hall was designed by William Flynn with help from Hugh Wilson, and opened as a public course in 1924.

Ironically, it was one of the first true "public" pay-as-you-go courses not started by a municipality, or as part of a high-end resort or resort community.

It was simply a good public course he built and partly-owned out in the Philly Suburbs that today is Green Valley CC.   It hasn't changed much over time, except for the usual tree plantings, etc., typical of courses of that vintage in the northeast.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul is correct."


Cirber:

Would you please try not to state the obvious on here? Of course I'm correct! I'm always correct. I don't think I have ever not been correct. There used to be a rumor that I was slightly mistaken about something back in 1949 but there is no one around anymore who remembers what it was about. I know I certainly don't! Most believe it was just some stupid rumor that emanated out of Ohio or California for some dumb reason.

[Dale Jackson]

"Tom Paul is correct."


Cirber:

Would you please try not to state the obvious on here? Of course I'm correct! I'm always correct. I don't think I have ever not been correct. There used to be a rumor that I was slightly mistaken about something back in 1949 but there is no one around anymore who remembers what it was about. I know I certainly don't! Most believe it was just some stupid rumor that emanated out of Ohio or California for some dumb reason.

To state the obvious, you are wrong about that!!!       

[TEPaul]

Dale Jackson:

Would you too please try not to state the obvious on here?

[TEPaul]

Cirba:

I will make an exception this one time if you insist on stating the obvious on here; The exception is if you want to state that the chances of MacWood admitting he's wrong about Marble Hall or about anything else, for that matter, is less than zilch or that the likelihood he will just try to avoid the subject altogether is better than 110 percent!

[Dale Jackson]

Dale Jackson:

Would you too please try not to state the obvious on here?

Obviously - not!

[TEPaul]

Cirba:

I have a few more housekeeping chores for you. Would you please ask Dale Jackson if he would like to join the debating partnership of Moriarty and MacWood, Inc, LLD, IRS, FBI, IOU?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Does Mr. Jackson have a yacht?

[TEPaul]

Very clever question, Mr. Cirba! I know there has to be something wrong with the guy; I just wasn't sure what it was. I think you got it----eg he's rich and he owns a yacht.