What was Seth Raynor's first solo design?

[TEPaul]

"It sounds good in concept but the proof is in the pudding, and you have produced nothing."



The proof is in the pudding for sure but how could you possibly even know what the pudding is or what I've produced for any of the clubs I've worked with in architectural research/analysis since you've never been to any of them, you know no one at them and you have never had any relationship with any of them nor do you seem inclined to do that? Perhaps you feel you may not be welcome at them for some reason and actually at this point that may be one of the most reasonable thoughts you've had.

Or maybe you think Golfclubatlas.com is an architectural archive or the only one extant. It isn't; this is a discussion group, and familiarity with and knowledge of important original material is most worthy of discussion on here according to most everyone who participates on this website. Do you have some problem with people who have familiarity with and knowledge of important original material?

[Mike Sweeney]

I found this in a Miami paper (January 1, 1915). I'm not sure how often CBM went to Florida but I found him and/or Mrs. Macdonald with Deering (or his brother) in 1917 and 1919 too.

Tom,

Do you have any docs stating Macdonald was involved at The Everglades Club in Palm Beach?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You've made 38793 posts on Golfclubatlas.com and we can count on two hands (probably one hand, but I'll give you two) how often you've produced any documentation from your 'research'....and one of those was falsified.

[Tom MacWood]

I found this in a Miami paper (January 1, 1915). I'm not sure how often CBM went to Florida but I found him and/or Mrs. Macdonald with Deering (or his brother) in 1917 and 1919 too.

Tom,

Do you have any docs stating Macdonald was involved at The Everglades Club in Palm Beach?

I'll have to look, but I don't think I do. CBM was pretty explicit about which course he was involved with after 1917.

[Mike Sweeney]

I found this in a Miami paper (January 1, 1915). I'm not sure how often CBM went to Florida but I found him and/or Mrs. Macdonald with Deering (or his brother) in 1917 and 1919 too.

Tom,

Do you have any docs stating Macdonald was involved at The Everglades Club in Palm Beach?

I'll have to look, but I don't think I do. CBM was pretty explicit about which course he was involved with after 1917.

How was CB Macdonald "explicit"?

[Tom MacWood]

In his book CBM listed the relatively small number of courses he was involved in designing after 1917.

I found this on Fred Ruth's sad ending.

[Mike Sweeney]

In his book CBM listed the relatively small number of courses he was involved in designing after 1917.
 

Was Mountain Lake on that list?

[Tom MacWood]

"Next came the St. Louis CC, then the White Sulphur Springs layout, and then finally came the colossal task of the Lido at Long Beach. By this time Raynor had become a post graduate in golfing architecture, and since 1917 built or reconstructed some 100 to 150 courses, which I have never seen. The Mid-Ocean Club, the Yale GC, the Links Golf Course, the Gibson Island Golf Course, the Deedale, and the Creek Club were the only ones I gave and personal attention to after 1917."

[Mike Sweeney]

So Tom, if CB was "explicit" in your words, there is no documentation anywhere that CB was at or involved in Mountain Lake, why are you posting articles about him attending New Year's parties in Palm Beach in 1915?

[Tom MacWood]

If you don't like the article its no big deal. He was explicit about what he did after 1917, unfortunately prior to, not so much. I'm posting the article because it places him in Florida in 1915; you've claimed Mountain Lake was designed in 1915. Its probably just a coincidence.

[TEPaul]

"I'm posting the article because it places him in Florida in 1915; you've claimed Mountain Lake was designed in 1915. Its probably just a coincidence."


Tom MacWood:

Is that something like the coincidence that HH Barker took a train from New York to Georgia in December 1910 and you think Barker designed Merion East in December 1910 because Ardmore Pennsylvania is somewhere between New York and Geogria?

[TEPaul]

TEP
You've made 38793 posts on Golfclubatlas.com and we can count on two hands (probably one hand, but I'll give you two) how often you've produced any documentation from your 'research'....and one of those was falsified."



Tom MacWood:


That's a remark of yours on here I am absolutely going to guarantee you'll end up regretting. I doubt you have any credibiltiy or reputation left on here or anywhere else but if there is a question of it I will end it by saying you ain't got one with any club and course of any significance you might ever been interested in again. If anyone looks through these North Shore/Raynor threads you've participated in they can't miss the fact that everyone on here seems to have finally figured out what you are up to on this website and taken you to task for it. The only thing that surprises me is that it didn't happen much sooner.

[Tom MacWood]

Assuming this ad was produced in 1924 what are some of the glaring omissions from his list?

[George_Bahto]

about a zillion ----- that is a PARTIAL LIST FOR ADVISEMENT

now what are you trying to do ??

[hick]

Wanumetonomy in Middletown , RI 1922. I think it says a few and not all.

[Tom MacWood]

George
If there are too many to mention why do you think he chose these courses over those he omitted?

[Bradley Anderson]

I think one good way to answer the question of what was Seth Raynor's first solo design is to determine when he began his business.

Now CBM may have advised him and kept a close eye on his work; he may have even made statements to the effect that Raynor was under his tutelage up to a certain date. But regardless of all that, once Raynor began directing people on his own dime, then he is solo. No matter what CBM or any journalist says.

For all we know, Raynor benefited from letting everyone think that CBM was more involved than he really truly was. That's why I don't think journalism can be conclusive on this. It essentially depends on when he began entering into business arrangements on his own, independent from CBM.

[Tom MacWood]

What business? Raynor was a civil engineer and surveyor before he got into golf construction and design, and continued to do both for some period.

That is interesting speculation none the less...what are you basing it on? Have you studied Raynor's activities?

[Bradley Anderson]

What business? Raynor was a civil engineer and surveyor before he got into golf construction and design, and continued to do both for some period.

That is interesting speculation none the less...what are you basing it on? Have you studied Raynor's activities?

Mr. MacWood,

Obviously there were at least two, and possibly three phases in Raynor's career. Phase one in which he was a builder of other men's designs, phase two in which he was a builder that had design input, and phase three in which he was the designer and builder. I think you are asking where did he hit phase three first?

As I said, I am not sure if the journalism of that day can answer that because in his earliest efforts he very probably would have played the CBM card. Why wouldn't he? There was more than enough room in CBM's ego to allow it, and we do know that Raynor was a very humble and practical man. It's almost inconceivable that it could have started any other way. But you are right - I am speculating. I do think however that once a man has established his own business and he is paying his own people to follow his directions in the field, he is probably on his own by that point. But you are right, that is speculation too.

[George_Bahto]

When Raynor went on his own, right from the beginning, he did not have financial backing from CBM - he had to make a profit on his own (and could not be the dictator that Macdonald was) ... he was then designer and constructor and business owner - certainly, in the beginning, he may have gotten financial advice from his mentor

Meeting up with Charles Banks helped him a lot, Banks as well versed in finance and was a excellent writer and was very efficient in his approach to most things  ..... (esp using large equipment to get this done faster and more efficiently)

as to why he chose those particular courses for THAT advertisement: he would know the answer - no me. I would speculate that they where either courses he was most proud of at that time, or courses that were visible and popular

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley, Tom & George,

Wouldn't the answer to which course was SR's first solo design lie within the club's board or green committee minutes of the courses he worked with ?

Those minutes would be dated and they would probably detail if Raynor working alone or if he was assisted. 

[George_Bahto]

 Pat asked: "Wouldn't the answer to which course was SR's first solo design lie within the club's board or green committee minutes of the courses he worked with ?

Those minutes would be dated and they would probably detail if Raynor working alone or if he was assisted"


Pat that's easy to say but most club do not have this information,

I was at Nassau  yesteday and prompted them to look for minutes - we'll see

Pat I also saw that old aerial in the club house, the oblique shot of what appears to be the Raynor course 0 there is a Short with the typical fully loaded sand all around the green way back in the distance of the photo

Raynor first year:  so far I have 5 with a possible 6th

[Tom MacWood]

Bradley, Tom & George,

Wouldn't the answer to which course was SR's first solo design lie within the club's board or green committee minutes of the courses he worked with ?

Those minutes would be dated and they would probably detail if Raynor working alone or if he was assisted.  

Club records could be a good source of info. The problem is those club records are not always available, some are lost through fire, some of these clubs are gone, and some are inconclusive depending how complicated the situation may have been, North Shore being a good example. That is what makes evaluating Raynor's early career more difficult than most - his relationship with CBM, who apparently did not accept a fee.

[Bradley Anderson]

That is what makes evaluating Raynor more difficult than most - his relationship with CBM, who apparently did not accept a fee.

I'm curious about this arrangement. If CBM did not receive a fee, then who was paying the workers and the suppliers for the golf courses he is credited as designing? If it was Raynor then you have to ask yourself what his arrangements were with the club.

[Tom MacWood]

Pat asked: "Wouldn't the answer to which course was SR's first solo design lie within the club's board or green committee minutes of the courses he worked with ?

Those minutes would be dated and they would probably detail if Raynor working alone or if he was assisted"


Pat that's easy to say but most club do not have this information,

I was at Nassau  yesteday and prompted them to look for minutes - we'll see

Pat I also saw that old aerial in the club house, the oblique shot of what appears to be the Raynor course 0 there is a Short with the typical fully loaded sand all around the green way back in the distance of the photo

Raynor first year:  so far I have 5 with a possible 6th

Raynor course? I would assume that aerial was post-Herbert Strong's overhaul.