What was Seth Raynor's first solo design?

[Tom MacWood]

On the North Shore thread George Bahto said these were Raynor's first solo projects.

1914   Westhampton - CC of Fairfield - Greenwich CC - North Shore

1915  Blind Brook -  Gardiner's Bay - Shoreacres - Bellport

Westhampton appears to be a Barker design. Greenwich is a CBM redesign in 1916. North Shore was a redesign. Blind Brook is 1916 and also appears to be CBM (he had a falling out with club Geo Low completed the course). Shoreaces is a Raynor design in 1917. The information on Gardiner's Bay, Bellport and CC of Fairfield is sketchy at best, with the first two being redesigns and the last one not being completed until 1921.

What was Raynor's first original solo design?

[Mike Sweeney]

No idea where it sits in the rotation, but I have never heard any mention that Mountain Lake was his first:

_________________________________

According to John Caldwell, author of ‘Mountain Lake’ in 1986, Raynor came to Florida for the first time in his life in the Spring of 1915, where he met by Fred Olmstead and they toured the Belleaire Hotel’s two 18 hole golf courses in Clearwater, Florida. Over at Mountain Lake, Olmstead and Raynor walked the projected course often together, and at night Raynor would sit down with Olmstead’s contour map to piece the course together. By mid-May of 1915, Raynor and Olmstead had the course design incorporated into the overall plan. Models were then built by Raynor and sent from Southampton where holes 1-6 and current 16-18 were completed by December of 1916. As funding was tight, the course played as 9 holes until May of 1920 when Ruth wrote Raynor that it was time to complete the second 9 holes. On October 2, 1920, Ruth played the first 18 hole round at Mountain Lake. The basic design has been altered from time to time. However the first major changes were made by Charles Banks in 1929 and again later by Olmstead Brothers based on a report written in 1952.

_____________________________________

I would be surprised if Fred Olmstead Jr hired a first time architect to lay out the golf course at Mountain Lake, so I assume Raynor did one or more before the Spring of 1915.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Here is advertisement from the Miami Herald (2/8/1915) that clearly shows a golf course was planned from the beginning, but according to the Golf Course Guide the Mountain Lake Club was not formed until 1917. Do you know when construction began?

[TEPaul]

The Mountain Lake project was conceived and begun in 1915 and Raynor was involved in it with Ruth and Olmsted, the same combo who would be involved in Fishers Island some years later.

In my opinion, the roll that C.B. Macdonald played in any of Raynor's designs or projects will be an item that will probably remain never fully known for a whole host and variety of reasons, even if arguably historically fascinating. I think the primary thing is it just wasn't comprehensively recorded anywhere and for a whole host and variety of reasons as well.

For a guy who only does and only apparently can depend on newspaper articles for golf architectural research, I'm very sorry about that Tom MacWood, but it's just the way it goes in history sometimes.

From having seen it all at Moutain Lake and before the recent Mountain Lake restoration project began my recollection is that there is a whole lot of interesting material contained in the club's archives from the beginning of the Mountain Lake project that predates the newspaper articles posted just above.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike
Here is advertisement from the Miami Herald (2/8/1915) that clearly shows a golf course was planned from the beginning, but according to the Golf Course Guide the Mountain Lake Club was not formed until 1917. Do you know when construction began?

Tom,

I only know what I posted above. Brad Klein did the new Mountain Lake book, so perhaps he would know.

Having done a little work in real estate, I would say that asking when Mountain Lake was legally formed is a completely different question than when did Raynor do work at ML. From my memory, and that includes only half of my article which made it over during the platform change http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/mike-sweeney-blending-old-and-new-in-renovating-a-classic , Raynor only made the one trip to ML in the Spring of 1915.

I am sure that based on legal documents and such filed in FLORIDA IN THE 1915 ERA, a number of tricky lawyers could make compelling arguments for ML formation dates ranging from 1915-1917 and they would all be right and they would all send you a bill. Florida had to be the wild west at that time, and Lake Wales probably only had orange farms at that point. From a practical point of view, the Spring of 1915 appears to be the date of when the club was formed and Raynor was on the property.

[Tom MacWood]

I found this on the Mountain Lake website:

http://www.mountainlakecc.com/club/scripts/section/section.asp?GRP=5276&NS=COL

Apparently the Mountain Lake Clubhouse was designed in 1916. Did it act as the clubhouse for the golf course or was there another building serving that purpose? Olmsted was both a landscape architect and an architect.

Even if the golf course was not designed until 1916, it may very well be Raynor's first original design. It appears to be youngest presented so far.

[Mike Sweeney]

I can't say for sure but today the golf clubhouse which is about the size of a very large garage sits close to that building on the first fairway above which I assume was the golf clubhouse back then.

The Colony House today is the separate building seen below that sits directly between 18 green and 1 tee.

[Mike Sweeney]

Olmsted was both a landscape architect and an architect.

Even if the golf course was not designed until 1916, it may very well be Raynor's first original design. It appears to be youngest presented so far.

Tom,

Olmstead was a landscape architect and he spent way more time on property at ML and he is documented as collaborating with Raynor on the course. Why would you not give him design credit at ML and you give it to others at similar projects?

[TEPaul]

“Even if the golf course was not designed until 1916, it may very well be Raynor's first original design. It appears to be youngest presented so far.”



Can this man who claims to be a historical golf course architect/architecture researcher actually be making, at this point, a remark like the one above with even a modicum of seriousness? If so, how can anyone not assume that he must be either virtually brain-dead or just incapable of reading and understanding and appreciating something remarkably clear such as the following FROM A CLUB’s RECORDING OF A CLUB MEETING of JANUARY, 1915? I mean it certainly is not as if he hasn't been participating on the current North Shore thread----"North Shore CC Long Island---Tillie - Raynor?"


"On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work."

[Tom MacWood]

Olmsted was both a landscape architect and an architect.

Even if the golf course was not designed until 1916, it may very well be Raynor's first original design. It appears to be youngest presented so far.

Tom,

Olmstead was a landscape architect and he spent way more time on property at ML and he is documented as collaborating with Raynor on the course. Why would you not give him design credit at ML and you give it to others at similar projects?

What are you talking about? The question is not if he designed ML, the question is when he designed it and was it his first.

[Tom MacWood]

“Even if the golf course was not designed until 1916, it may very well be Raynor's first original design. It appears to be youngest presented so far.”



Can this man who claims to be a historical golf course architect/architecture researcher actually be making, at this point, a remark like the one above with even a modicum of seriousness? If so, how can anyone not assume that he must be either virtually brain-dead or just incapable of reading and understanding and appreciating something remarkably clear such as the following FROM A CLUB’s RECORDING OF A CLUB MEETING of JANUARY, 1915? I mean it certainly is not as if he hasn't been participating on the current North Shore thread----"North Shore CC Long Island---Tillie - Raynor?"


"On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work."

TEP
I think your memory has left you again. North Shore was a redesign of an existing golf course; the question raised with this thread is what was his first original design.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wouldn't Shoreacres be in contention for this title?

[Mike Sweeney]

What are you talking about? The question is not if he designed ML, the question is when he designed it and was it his first.

Tom,

Your question in the title is What was Seth Raynor's first solo design?. In a number of other threads you have mentioned a variety of players (White specifically in the North Shore thread) where Raynor possibly collaborated.

Why would you not count Mountain Lake as a Raynor Olmstead collaboration?

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
Shoreacres was actually 1917.

Mike
Raynor and Olmsted collaborated in the design of the golf course?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike
Raynor and Olmsted collaborated in the design of the golf course?

Raynor send down models of greens from Southampton so obviously Olmstead had to make decision in the field. Olmstead obviously had to decide where golf vs houses and infrastructure could go. Mountain Lake was one of the first (if not the first) housing course of its kind so it would seem that the Land Planner and Golf Course Architect had to collaborate on everything. There is a real integration of community and course at Mountain Lake. Obviously it was successful for the team as they moved onto Fishers Island and eventually Banks replaced Raynor at Whippoorwill.

What I am asking you is how YOU define "design of the golf course"? Where does it stop? How different is a collaboration with a Land Planner versus a greenskeeper? Is getting a few ideas from another architect the same? If White collaborated with Raynor at North Shore, how is that different that Olmstead and Raynor collaborating at Mountain Lake?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I think your memory has left you again. North Shore was a redesign of an existing golf course; the question raised with this thread is what was his first original design."



Oh, FIRST ORIGINAL SOLO design! My mistake. In that case, I would say, as GeorgeB mentioned, it would be Westhampton in 1914 even though CBM mentioned that Raynor did not become a 'post graduate in golf course architecture until 1917.' 

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Raynor and Olmsted collaborated in the design of the golf course?

Raynor send down models of greens from Southampton so obviously Olmstead had to make decision in the field. Olmstead obviously had to decide where golf vs houses and infrastructure could go. Mountain Lake was one of the first (if not the first) housing course of its kind so it would seem that the Land Planner and Golf Course Architect had to collaborate on everything. There is a real integration of community and course at Mountain Lake. Obviously it was successful for the team as they moved onto Fishers Island and eventually Banks replaced Raynor at Whippoorwill.

What I am asking you is how YOU define "design of the golf course"? Where does it stop? How different is a collaboration with a Land Planner versus a greenskeeper? Is getting a few ideas from another architect the same? If White collaborated with Raynor at North Shore, how is that different that Olmstead and Raynor collaborating at Mountain Lake?

While I don't discount the importance of the Olmsteds in developments like Mountain Lake, Pasatiempo, Pinehurst, Fishers Island, Yeamans Hall, Druid Hills, Gibson Island and Augusta National you are the first I know who has suggested they deserve co-design credit for any golf course. Do you know if they even played the game?

[Mike Sweeney]

While I don't discount the importance of the Olmsteds in developments like Mountain Lake, Pasatiempo, Pinehurst, Fishers Island, Yeamans Hall, Druid Hills, Gibson Island and Augusta National you are the first I know who has suggested they deserve co-design credit for any golf course. Do you know if they even played the game?

I never suggested they/he (Olmsted) should receive credit.

I asked you why Olmstead should not get design credit and White should? You keep asking questions and changing the topic similar to Tiger Woods. Why should White get credit for North Shore with Raynor and Olmsted does not get credit at Mountain Lake.

In the modern era, should Gil Hanse's name be on the first course at Stonewall in Pennsylvania? Why or why not?

I also asked you to "define "design of the golf course"?"

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Why don't you just try applying yourself for a change and concentrating and just answering the questions Mike Sweeney is asking you instead of deflecting them or avoiding them? To say that your modus operandi of doing the latter has gotten old and gotten boring is frankly a massive understandment, at this point.  Some of us are definitely wondering if you are even capable of doing that; please try to show us you are capable of semi-intelligently considering and answering those questions rather than deflecting or avoiding them.

The same could be said for the questions Phil Young has asked you or I've asked you or Jeff Brauer or Tim Nugent has asked you or just about everyone else on here who is still willing to dialogue on here with you has asked you.

If you really are sick or something why don't you just tell us so or tell one of us so on an IM or email and we'll be glad to desist and decease are dialogue and questioning and we will understand where you're apparently coming from on this website.

[Tom MacWood]

While I don't discount the importance of the Olmsteds in developments like Mountain Lake, Pasatiempo, Pinehurst, Fishers Island, Yeamans Hall, Druid Hills, Gibson Island and Augusta National you are the first I know who has suggested they deserve co-design credit for any golf course. Do you know if they even played the game?

I never suggested they/he (Olmsted) should receive credit.

I asked you why Olmstead should not get design credit and White should? You keep asking questions and changing the topic similar to Tiger Woods. Why should White get credit for North Shore with Raynor and Olmsted does not get credit at Mountain Lake.

In the modern era, should Gil Hanse's name be on the first course at Stonewall in Pennsylvania? Why or why not?

I also asked you to "define "design of the golf course"?"

First of all it was reported in the minutes that "Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club." This was before the course was built. I don't believe there is any similar report stating Olmsted assisted Raynor in laying out the golf course.

Second of all White had experience prior to NS laying out golf courses; to my knowledge Olmsted had no such experience. Third White went on to have pretty fair prolific golf course design career; to my knowledge Olmsted never laid out golf course during his life.

Designing a golf course is the act of laying out (routing) and designing individual golf holes.

[TEPaul]

"First of all it was reported in the minutes that "Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club." This was before the course was built. I don't believe there is any similar report stating Olmsted assisted Raynor in laying out the golf course.

Second of all White had experience prior to NS laying out golf courses; to my knowledge Olmsted had no such experience. Third White went on to have pretty fair prolific golf course design career; to my knowledge Olmsted never laid out golf course during his life.

Designing a golf course is the act of laying out (routing) and designing individual golf holes."



Mike Sweeney:

Is there hopefully a pretty good possibility you could just ignore the idiotic remarks above and just refrain from responding to it for the benefit of most all of us on here? 

Thanks, Pal, I have every confidence you will understand the reasons why and why I ask! 

[Tom MacWood]

"Next came the St. Louis CC, then the White Sulphur Springs layout, and then finally came the colossal task of the Lido at Long Beach. By this time Raynor had become a post graduate in golfing architecture, and since 1917 built or reconstructed some 100 to 150 courses, which I have never seen. The Mid-Ocean Club, the Yale GC, the Links Golf Course, the Gibson Island Golf Course, the Deedale, and the Creek Club were the only ones I gave and personal attention to after 1917."

This is from Scotland's Gift-Golf, and it makes me wonder if we are looking too early for Raynor's first solo effort. CBM seems to be indicating 1917 was the year Raynor went out on his own. IMO this quote may bring new light to the information presented on the Mountain Lake project. According to MS Raynor made models in NY, sent them down to Florida, and the course was built based upon these models. We know making models was part of CBM's modus operandi, at least it was at the NGLA and Lido.

During his long career is there any other example of Raynor making models?

[Mike Sweeney]

According to MS Raynor made models in NY, sent them down to Florida, and the course was built based upon these models. We know making models was part of CBM's modus operandi, at least it was at the NGLA and Lido.

During his long career is there any other example of Raynor making models?

Tom,

This is where you get into trouble. I am strictly an observer and occasional tweeker on these threads and I will soon be headed back to Kentucky vs Cornell conversations on the NCAA thread.  

I clearly stated my source as  "John Caldwell, author of ‘Mountain Lake’ in 1986". Caldwell obviously had access to the clubs archives. I have never seen them as they are in a building across the street from the Mountain Lake complex.  

While there are unique situations in life, such as Sebonack, where there may be Co-CEO's, Co-Architects, Co-MVP's........I believe in the overwhelming majority of situations in life there has to be a Chief and then the Indians. Just ask my wife.   I think Raynor was the architect of North Shore, Mountain Lake, and Yale. In the case of Yale, MacD was probably involved mainly because of the ego of Yale University needing a non-Princeton big name architect. In the case of NS, MacD was probably involved due to proximity. In the case of ML, there was not a chance in hell that Charlie was going to spend time in Florida.  In all three, my personal opinion as an observer is that Seth Raynor was the sole architect of each. In designing and building any course, I would expect a good architect to take and reject input from a variety of sources including greenskeepers, architects, pros, amateurs and similar.

Go Big Red!

[Tom MacWood]

While I appreciate your intuition or gut feelings I prefer supportable information. Did Caldwell reference where he got his information....what were his sources?

[Mike Sweeney]

While I appreciate your intuition or gut feelings I prefer supportable information. Did Caldwell reference where he got his information....what were his sources?

Tom,

The book came out in 1986. I was drinking lots of beer back then so probably I am not the best source for this time period. Try Brad Klein who did the new Mountain Lake book.