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archie_struthers

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internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« on: March 21, 2010, 11:00:42 PM »
 ??? ??? ???

A friend ,an excellent golfer and architecture buff recently  mentioned that the incredibly complex , and miniaturized , internal green contours of a highly ranked and respected architect were overdone....I agree and prefer the broad brush strokes of greens with larger flowing contours ,   what say you?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 06:38:34 AM by archie_struthers »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 11:05:58 PM »
Archie,

I have opined that the long smooth contours are a better test of golf. My reasoning is that if those micro contours are such that you can't really read the putt, then where is the strategy of trying to put the ball on one side of the green or the other, etc.?

In most landscapes, the long flowing contours probably match the surrounding country side a bit better, too.

I have been roundly shot down here for those kind of heretic thoughts against the groupthink here, so put on your flack jacket.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2010, 11:12:56 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

They can bring it on Jeff....I'm all for quirk but not on a five footer for par

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 01:50:17 AM »
Archie,
I can't remember how many times I've seen guys miss a particularly twisty putt, maybe on a green that's similar to your example, and then they rake it back and make the second one, or get it really close. I've done the same thing many times.

Are the greens of this as yet 'unknown' to us, but well respected, highly ranked architect more treacherous than that? Actually, if they are more treacherous than that I could see how he might be 'unknown' to anyone because he'd have a hard time becoming highly ranked and well respected producing that kind of product.

I'd guess it isn't Jeff.  :D


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 06:20:06 AM »
This is a subject that could kick-off...

A friend of mine believes that a few of the greens at Ballyneal have such micro internal contouring that they don't tie in with the slightly larger lines of the surrounds... I am afraid I don't know which greens he referred to and I haven't seen the course myself... He also believed the same was true of the 11th at The Renaissance Club... I have seen that and happen to disagree with him...

Joe Bausch

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2010, 08:21:55 AM »
Are there situations where these greens with small internal contours work better than others?  For instance, are people more in favor of them on 'lay of the land' greens?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tim Nugent

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2010, 08:36:14 AM »
Guess it all depends on what the definition of "small" is, at what speed the greens are, and the overall size of the green in question.  Also, how the green is sited (raised or fairway elev.)  For ex. I did a fiarway green (right and rear runoffs) that had a seriers of interal ridges, not more that 6-8".  I think it is one of the better greens on the course, as it fits and flows with the surrounding topography of the fairway.  But, if this green was raised 2', I would't care for it.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2010, 09:13:26 AM »
I like where Ally is heading - to specifics

I've seen so many broad stroke greens that I thought were bland.
And very few overly micro shaped greens that didn't fit.

Maintenance is there to make it a nice surface over time.

Archie are there any greens at Pine Valley that are too busy for you?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2010, 09:28:05 AM »
Tim,

If I am guessing right, I would say that 6-8" is not a micro contour in this context.

I am guessing this is about so called "random" or internal contours where small mounds or ridges are scattered about the green and which never touch the outside edge. As a result, virtually every putt has an uphill and downhill component on its way to the hole, making it very difficult to judge speed.

It may be an area where the base slope of a green changes for a short stretch from 2 to 3% so a putt from that direction is very difficult to judge speed.

I guess in theory all of these are great, and they do look cool.  But if they make stuff  harder for the great players, they tend to make things nearly impossible for the rest of us, so to me, its a question of how hard do we want to make the course.

And, as the original post opines, most good players just don't like them for the reasons listed above.  If a green has long gentle slopes, a player can aim to an area with an uphill putt that is makeable.  If putts anywhere are hard, the need is to get really, really close to the pin, and if too difficult, I think the tendency is to aim at the middle since there is no advantage for aiming near the pin, but shading away slightly.  Maybe that doesn't happen anyway, who knows.

It just seems to me that if we say we enjoy risk reward, but limit that to tee shot design, we really aren't employing strategic design.  There should be some areas of the green that are more favorable to hit, and I believe long flowing contours do that, while random contours tend to penalize.

Of course, all of that is "theory" and as Tim says, there must be some consideration to the real world siting of the green, hole type, etc.  And, there may be room for all types of contourng, even on one course, in the name of variety.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2010, 09:47:14 AM »
Jeff - OH - Wrinkles, Bumps and Muffins! Thanks for the context.

Not my cup of tea.  Sounds like a formula for a 6-hr round.

If I ever see something like that, I chaulk it up to poor finish work.  If some archie did it, I would think they were just too cute for their own good.  Anyone can make a course hard by gimmicking it up.  Doesn't make the course Good.  Why crucify the ordinary player? - hell, most can't read your greens.  Anything more than a double breaker requires more luck than skill.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2010, 09:56:31 AM »
I often wonder if these kind of contours do add to the typical round, where most golfers would start giving all putts in the leather just to avoid seeing grown men cry.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2010, 10:13:42 AM »
Jeff, just look back at Jim Kennedy's post about "raking it back" and trying again.  It all adds up!  Especially when one can't believe his own eyes and has to determine if it was a mishit or a misread.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2010, 10:17:07 AM »
Tim & Jeff

Please give a specific example.
Chalking up a 6 hr round seems like a red herring.

Tim post some pics of that favored green of yours.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2010, 10:18:55 AM »
Archie
why don't you tell us the course?
That would be more helpful.
There is no context for this discussion.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jason Topp

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2010, 10:19:09 AM »
It is a little difficult for me to verbalize, but I dislike humps and mounds all over the greens but really like lay of the land greens with a bunch of very small natural looking contours that must be read in order to make a putt.  Older courses with push up greens feature many such contours, perhaps as a result of settling over a number of years.  I like the challenge of a green that slopes generally with the general slope of the land, but contains some spines that require the player to judge whether the general slope or the spine predominates.  Such contours reward green reading and solid contact with the putter.

Tim Nugent

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2010, 10:33:04 AM »
Mike N.
I would have to get a picture of it.  Most of the snow is gone.  Then i'd have to finnaly figure out the photo bucket thing.  Maybe I'll just email it to you.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2010, 10:34:52 AM »
Tim,

I always wonder why people call for "rolling the ball back" when most of us have been doing it for years.

Mike,

I can be more specific when you are......you seem to be making a lot of posts lately that are somewhat cryptic, seemingly pretending to know something without giving any specifics your own self! ???  I also agree with you that it is very specific, but disagree that its not possible to talk about the concept of random and micro contours outside a specific example.  And, I agree with Tim - we have both spent enough time on public courses to know what slows down play and for a public course, there is good reason to design for the expected level of player, vs. you Wolf Point, designed for one player!

That said, one green I am thinking of is Dallas National No. 5.  I went out there with Notah Begay III and he pointed out how someone of his caliber play couldn't make the chip from the right of the green, due to one of those "accelerator ramps" side slopes in the middle of that green.  Because it was in the middle of the green, if the pin was just below the slope, there was simply no way to get a shot or putt close if above the hole.

Later in the day, when going around to take pictures, I saw Lee Trevino at the same green and said hi.  Unprompted, he said they should blow that green up, citing the same reasons.  He was particularly sensitive, having played it with a lot of ams, to the fact that many were playing from that side of the green, with their slice, and then chipped right through the green, necessitating at least one more chip, and if that went to just above the little slope, perhaps a putt off the green, rechip, etc.

The reason I am against over use of micro contours is that if guys of that caliber don't like them, and can't play them, then its good enough for me to not put them in a design.  It seems to be a question of whether the golf course should reward a decent approach shot, or whether it should just keep challenging the golfer with a hard putt?  I will grant two things:

1. There is room for both in the big world of gca
2. In the example above, it might be the specific location of the sneakly slope in the middle of the green that is the problem over the concept itself.  It might be neat in just the right context, but is an interesting example of following the land (perhaps that slope takes up some contour on the natural cross slope) NOT necessarily being good architecture because it creates a situation that doesn't reward good play.

I agree with Jason in general -if the splines come in from the edges, they are the best defense against going for a tucked pin and create strategy.  I also agree greens ought to slope with the general contour.  But, most golfers view the center of the green as the safe part to hit and the random contours diminish that somewhat.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2010, 10:37:04 AM »
I am not sure I have ever experienced greens with mini-undulations that made it too difficult to putt.  Any examples on offer?  I wouldn't consider not being able to chip/putt close to a hole location if one is caught on the wrong side as a good example.  Sometimes, this is excellent design, especially if we can eliminate hazards to achieve this end.  I am much more interested in how an archie can challenge can challenge me without resorting to first, length, and second, hazards.  It is this type of course that I can usually play every week and not get bored. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:41:42 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2010, 10:58:07 AM »
Sean,

It can be good design, and of all the Tour Pros I have worked with, some don't mind it, including Jim Colbert.  That comment I referenced on my Golf Channel Gig was actually about designing one of those exact situations - provide a fw chipping bail out but "screw the guy" by giving him a difficult chip running away from him, which JC favored.

But, I do think there is a small conceptual difference between a constant slope away from you and one with the accelerator ramp that is barely visible to carry your shot past the pin.

I guess it all goes back to the concept of rewarding skill.  If you present a contour that is unchippable even by the worlds best, is that right conceptually?

As to micro contours being too hard to putt, I would guess that (theoretically) they aren't hard to putt fairly close, but they are hard to make birdie putts.  Those micro contours only have to deflect a ball an inch or two off line to cause a miss.  That said, they may NOT be any harder to read than a gentle slope and aiming an inch too low will just as surely cause a miss. 

As Tim says, though, more than a double break is luck, not skill.  And of course, different courses for different horses.  No one wants to go to Sand Hills to play pancake flat greens, so that is a great feature.  At the local muni, contours need to be simpler than that, IMHO. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2010, 12:17:58 PM »
Jeff
Do you think I am being defensive of Wolf Point
I don't even know how the shaping of the greens there would be classified by you or Tim

I agree there were a couple greens at Dallas National that had too much internal movement, especially because those surfaces didn't fit the land, the course, the designer or have much relationship to the hole's strategy.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2010, 12:21:33 PM »
Mike,

I don't think you are being defensive about Wolf Point, but you have demanded a few things from us that I don't see you giving either.

I am a bit confused about how the green surfaces at DN don't "fit the designer?"  Fazio isn't shy about green contours, that is for sure!  As to fitting the land, on that site, which must average 30% slopes and required total building, I am not sure any green out there could fit the land.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2010, 12:44:52 PM »
Jeff
I'm wasn't stating an opinion - I was questioning yours.

2 (couple) greens at Dallas National didn't fit the designer was my way of saying they weren't practiced enough to pull them off - they looked like an experiment gone awry.
I've not seen any other examples of similar greens of theirs.

cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2010, 04:54:40 PM »
 :-X 8) :-X

Can't keep my big mouth shut , we were arguing over the Coore & Crenshaw greens at Hidden Creek.....Although I am a big fan of both guys personally ( they are real super guys)  and professionally .  At the risk of being banned or publicly fllogged ( note golf is flog spelled backwards )  I say this here

The greens are in some cases just too random for me and further elevates putting as the determinant of good golf , with all other fqcets of the game being minimized

particularly don't get the 8th at Hidden ,  from tee to the green , which is really wacky ... any micro micro contours are verboten in my dream 18
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 01:08:04 AM by archie_struthers »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2010, 04:57:38 PM »
No one wants to go to Sand Hills to play pancake flat greens, so that is a great feature.  At the local muni, contours need to be simpler than that, IMHO. 

If this question is about the public greens then I go along (mostly) with the premise. I just don't see the problem w/private clubs having some greens that are very tricky, and I think that's the type of course this topic was referencing, private.

Grass is so highly maintained nowadays that some surfaces almost resemble the felt on a pool table, some micro breaks are in order if there's going to be such perfectly smooth surfaces, and done properly they could be a replacement for the grain that we once had to deal with. There isn't much difference in watching your 6 footer getting forced away from the hole by grain or by micro break, at least not for me.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JESII

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Re: internal green contours ...when do they become too small
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2010, 04:58:40 PM »
Arch,

To really put you on the spot...how do the characteristics you're speaking of (other than the mound in #8) differ from the 16th green at The valley?

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