Riviera, WOW!

[Chip Gaskins]

What I like about the tenth is that it's a difficult short hole. So many short/driveable par 4s are really just holes with many different ways to make birdie. The risk/reward type of short hole almost always uses water as the penal risk factor.

Not so with the 10th at Riviera. There are lots of ways to play that hole but none of them make it "easy." Laying up on the hole doesn't guarantee a routine short iron or wedge. It requires a very precise shot. Your other option is to try to hit a very precise drive that leaves you either a putt or a relatively straightforward chip.

i hit driver and would do that every time i played it...i know i can't hit that green with a full shot, so i might as well get as close to it as i can.

a shot over 60 yards is a pretty tough thing to land on that green (unless you are TEPaul)

[Chip Gaskins]

I see you didn't include 6 in your highlight reel. Did you not like that hole?

I thought #6 was OK.  I just thought some of the other holes were much better.

[Ron Csigo]

Great photos Chip. 

Of all the other championship courses that you've played in California, where would you put Riviera?

[Chip Gaskins]

Great photos Chip.  

Of all the other championship courses that you've played in California, where would you put Riviera?

Hmmm, its hard to compare a place like Riviera to place like Cypress Point, they are both great, but so different.

My California list would be:

1) Cypress Point
2) Riviera
3) Cal Club
4) Pebble Beach
5) Pasatiempo
6) San Francisco Golf Club
7) Olympic Club
8 ) Valley Club
9) Mayacama
10) Rustic Canyon

or something like that... though, I have not played Bel Air, LACC, or MPCC

[Jim Nugent]

It seems that if I played Riviera regularly, I would keep trying different kinds of tee shots there.  And just when I thought I had figured it out, I would screw up an approach and start all over.

Perhaps so.  Yet Bob Huntley, a very good golfer, played Riviera regularly for years.  He says there is only one way to play #10. 

[Sean Leary]

It always seemed to me that you would have to decide which club you were more accurate with...your driver or your wedge...and if you didn't then follow up with a good shot you'd immediately second guess yourself because it really seems like a hole you should make a three on.

I haven't been there, but it looks like you can get in trouble with the driver, no? Is it feasible to hit it somewhere that you'd have to work hard to make a 5?

Seems like a hole that would always leave you second guessing as you walked off, or thought about later.

I like Sully's thought here. I fee the same way about 9 at CPC. Still haven't figured out the best way to play that one. I screwed it up in my one playing, but I watched Mike Benham lay up with his 11 wood to what looked like a perfect spot and it was impossible from there, too.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jim,

I should have said that it was only way I would play it if it were a meaningful match. I tried it all sorts of other ways, generally with disappointing results.

Bob

[Mike Benham]

I haven't been back in 35 years..

Perhaps after you earn one of these, they don't welcome you back ...

[Pete Lavallee]

Chip,
How long do the trees on holes #5, #7, #15, stay with the leaves off of them?  I thought there were only 2 seasons out there....warm and less warm.  I've only been to California a couple times, but it's just strange to me that those trees don't have leaves year round and yet every other tree on the course does.

Any experts in dendrology out there?

Those are sycamores; they are deciduous. They will be fully leafed out come summer. The backs of the leaves are like velvet; the Indians used them for toilet paper.

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks, Pete.

My father always says to learn something new everyday.  Today, that would be about sycamore leaves and their velvet touch!! 

[Jordan Wall]

Chip,

I'm surprised you didn't think 10 was a great hole.  I understand your criticism, but I feel that is part of what makes the hole so good.  The ability to have so many options and the need to execute on every shot is not so prevalent on any other short par-4 I have ever seen or played.  Just the fact you can think about playing your tee shot ten different ways, and not being able to really commit to any of them is testament to the hole's greatness.  I think the green works perfectly.

How do you compare it to 9 at Cypress?

Oh, and Freddie hit 7-iron into the trees, not wedge.  Up that hill, at 475, very few even on the PGA Tour could hit that with a wedge.

Sean, I'm still laughing...

Cheers,
Jordan

[Matthew Sander]

The biggest thing that jumps out making Riviera great is the land form the course sits in.  

I really like properties where you descend "into" the course via the opening tee shot. There is something cool about going down into a bowl for your round and ascending back up with the return holes. Often, these courses have very difficult finishing holes that bring you back out of the bowl.
I've never played Riviera, but it is an obvious example. Southern Hills and Innisbrook Copperhead also come to mind. It is not a feature that makes a course, it's just a minor characteristic that I'm fond of...

Those are sycamores; they are deciduous. They will be fully leafed out come summer. The backs of the leaves are like velvet; the Indians used them for toilet paper.

Or, do we use toilet paper for sycamore leaves??

[Anthony_Nysse]

I, personally think, that is some of the best bunker work in the country. I think that scale cannot be understood until you see it.

[Kevin Pallier]

Chip

Thanks for bringing back some recent memories.

I was told to hit my drive (a hyrid) on #10 directly at the cart path.....and from there it was a short wedge up the neck of the green to the hole.

For mine with all the long kikuyu off the fairway - accuracy is critical on the tee shot there.

[John Mayhugh]

Back in the early seventies I was a member at Riviera and lived on the rim above the back of the 12th tee. In the early summer evenings  iI would  take my two English Bull Terriers and  play 12, 13, 9, 10 and 11 back to the house. I had the place to myself and thought if heaven wasn't like this I didn't want to go.

My dog and I are both extremely jealous.  There are some great mini-loops you could play out there.

[George Freeman]

I, personally think, that is some of the best bunker work in the country. I think that scale cannot be understood until you see it.

I would have to agree after seeing Chip's photos.  Although I haven't seen the course in person, I am struck by the sand traps every time I see quality pictures of the course.   The just look outstanding; so much depth and texture, and at the same time so fluid...

wow

Thanks for the pics Chip!

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks Chip - great pics and thread of Riviera, it certainly does look WOW.

Q: do you have any pics of the dry river bed - does it run down #8 - can you or anyone else tell me a little bit more about it, is it sand? how long and wide is it, how many holes is it in play?

Cheers
Brett

[Jon Spaulding]

Great course, one of the best I have seen.

My only complaint is that it should be a solid 10.

Quoting Vanilla Ice, "lose the zero and get with the hero" (trade Fabio for the guys working down the street )

I could not disagree more with the assessment of #10. Many great golf holes demand that shots get hit, and are not for the faint of heart.

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip,

I'm surprised you didn't think 10 was a great hole.  I understand your criticism, but I feel that is part of what makes the hole so good.  The ability to have so many options and the need to execute on every shot is not so prevalent on any other short par-4 I have ever seen or played.  Just the fact you can think about playing your tee shot ten different ways, and not being able to really commit to any of them is testament to the hole's greatness.  I think the green works perfectly.

How do you compare it to 9 at Cypress?

Oh, and Freddie hit 7-iron into the trees, not wedge.  Up that hill, at 475, very few even on the PGA Tour could hit that with a wedge.

Sean, I'm still laughing...

Cheers,
Jordan

Jordan-

I didn't say it wasn't a good hole, I just thought the green was way to shallow to hold anything more than a long chip/pitch....at least for anyone above scratch.  Simply my opinion...I also don't think Merion #11, NGLA #3, Crystal Downs #6, etc are great holes and have been beat up for it...its just my opinion.

#9 at CPC is certainly more visually appealing and I agree with you, I am not sure how to play it either.  Only a perfect drive works or either you end up laying up with a really hard wedge shot.  Maybe I am just a horrible wedge player :-)

Chip

[Chip Gaskins]

I, personally think, that is some of the best bunker work in the country. I think that scale cannot be understood until you see it.

Anthony

I totally agree.  Other than the serenity of the place the bunkers are what I am most amazed with.  The size and depth of them.  Though it sounds like the original Bell/Thomas bunkers were no where near as deep and according to Todd Y at Riviera the grass just keeps growing on top of the blasted out sand and making them deeper and deeper (I realize all bunkers are like that, but he said the Kikuyu was especially bad in that vein)

Front bunker on #1 (looking from the side)


Deep bunkers on #3


Huge front bunker on the 245 yard par 3 4th hole that Hogan called his favorite.


Bunkering around #16


Front bunker on #17

[Chip Gaskins]

Thanks Chip - great pics and thread of Riviera, it certainly does look WOW.

Q: do you have any pics of the dry river bed - does it run down #8 - can you or anyone else tell me a little bit more about it, is it sand? how long and wide is it, how many holes is it in play?

Cheers
Brett

Brett

Here are a few of #8 river bed.

This is what Fazio would probably call a well manicured hazard.  I am sure the original wash out/river bed area used to me much larger and less maintained.

I am no rules expert but does where the two sandy areas meet (last picture) pose a problem?  For some reason they have some of the area marketed with a red stake and some not marked?

I think it would be cooler if it was all one big scrubby/sandy area and less of the rough going down into the central part.

Still a very fun hole though!

Walking from the tee


Looking down from the left side fairway (my ball in the middle of it!)


Meandering beside the actual fairway bunker from 150ish out


How the riverbed moves into the bunker running up to the greensite

[JESII]

Good stuff Chip, I was going to ask which is more over-rated in your view, #10 at Riviera or #11 at Merion...but wasn't really looking for an answer...

It's a good thing for someone to play the number of courses you do to also criticize what you think warrants criticism.

[Terry Lavin]

Good stuff Chip, I was going to ask which is more over-rated in your view, #10 at Riviera or #11 at Merion...but wasn't really looking for an answer...

It's a good thing for someone to play the number of courses you do to also criticize what you think warrants criticism.

Jim,

That's an excellent point.  There are SOME things to be critical of at Riviera, but they are very few and very far between. 

[JESII]

I guess the sentence should have finished..."and back it up when someone challenges the statement(s)"...that's what I liked about his initial shots at Merion, while I disagreed with his opinion, it's his. So far as I've seen there are no right answers, just opinions.

When I was a kid, we had an assistant pro that just raved about Riviera...only seeing it on TV has never really brought it to life. Even the other threads through the last few years on here haven't, but these pictures and comments have moved up really high on the list of courses I'd like to play.

[Chip Gaskins]

Good stuff Chip, I was going to ask which is more over-rated in your view, #10 at Riviera or #11 at Merion...but wasn't really looking for an answer...

It's a good thing for someone to play the number of courses you do to also criticize what you think warrants criticism.

Jim,

That's an excellent point.  There are SOME things to be critical of at Riviera, but they are very few and very far between. 

Terry-

First, welcome back.

Second, just to be clear...I think Riviera is fantastic, probably in my Top 10 in the U.S.  It was just my opinion that the green at #10 is so small that it doesn't actually present as many options as everyone always talks about.  Otherwise the course is amazing.

Chip