[Matt_Ward]

After watching this year's Doral event I have to question what's the deal with the tees being played in the far forward positions on a few of the key holes.

The 13th can play 250 yards and in tourneys past it has played to that distance. This year they used the 220-yd marks and the one seen today at 206 yards. No doubt it played into a stiff NW breeze -- but how bout challenging guys to play a par-3 where a full metal club would be used ?

The 15th can play around 180 yards and you see tees at the 131-yd marks (Saturday) and today at just over 150 yards.

When a guy shoots -18 for 72 holes (hats off to Ernie for a solid win) the rationale to make the course easier in spots astounds me.

If the slogan "these guys are really good" means much then why not test the players to do that.

The Blue Monster should be played for the course that it truly is -- not as some miniature version of what it can provide.

[Mike Sweeney]

Matt,

Your expertise at setting up PGA courses barely exceeds your understanding of college basketball.  Johnny Miller must have said 5 times how less than 50% of the pros were hitting that 140something par 3 green with 8 or 9 irons and that hole looks somewhat protected. 

It was a great finish by a old pro against a young upstart. Els shooting 66 in that wind was an awesome round. I think the Doral tournament has reestablished itself as the real start to the PGA tour season.

[jeffwarne]

Matt,

Your expertise at setting up PGA courses barely exceeds your understanding of college basketball.  Johnny Miller must have said 5 times how less than 50% of the pros were hitting that 140something par 3 green with 8 or 9 irons and that hole looks somewhat protected. 

It was a great finish by a old pro against a young upstart. Els shooting 66 in that wind was an awesome round. I think the Doral tournament has reestablished itself as the real start to the PGA tour season.

I'm with Matt on this one.
Doral is one of the courses where they fill the hotel with the promise that you can play the course the pros play.
What's next year's slogan? 'Play the course the pros don't play?"
13 has no "strategy" or hazards, it's just a long shot to a somewhat difficult to hold and shallow green.
Moving the tee up on 15 one day might be cool, but both days?

I'll take Doral over PGA National anytime

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Next time I watch a PGA Tour event I'll be sure to forward the pros a few diapers because the layout was put together to do one thing -- maximize score and minimize the architectural elements the course provides.

#13 is a tough long par-3 and when played into a NW wind can be a driver for many people - including the top pros. Playing it from 220 one day and then 206 the next was not in keeping with the "these guys are good" puffery you always hear about the tour.

#15 also should have been played from the tip at least twice -- playing from the 180-yard marks make for a more problematic shot instead of the cream puff short irons they had.

Mike, Doral Blue used to be an event in which real skills were needed because the course didn't give up that much without solid execution. Playing #16 as a driveable hole each day was also flawed. What's the point of the dog-leg if everyone is going for the green?

[JESII]

Matt,

Curious how this approach varied measurably from the Mike Davis efforts to add variety to the US Open?

You have been praising Davis' efforts, I can't tell from TV what the distinction was between the two programs.

Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I don't mind forward tees because conditions may require them -- but does playing #13 from the tips at least once hurt anyone ? Ditto the 15th -- 16th, etc, etc.

Doral Blue needs to have some teeth restored -- shooting -18 on a layout that is listed at "X" yardage but in reality plays far shorter doesn't tell me much and it simpyl belies the fact that these guys are so good.

Let Doral Blue really be Doral Blue at least for one or two rounds.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Matt-

Have you reviewed the stats and all the scores from this years tournament?

The set up might not have been the toughest we have ever seen--but it was fair and challenging.

Doral remains one of the longest running tour events, and had another successful golf tournament. The course played all week like it does everyday of the year.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Did you bother to read what I wrote ?

The tees were FORWARD on plenty of holes -- is it too much trouble to play the "listed" yardage as the actual yardage for at leasr one of the rounds?

[Kenny Baer]

Matt I agree with you, not really knowing Doral all that well, meaning I have only seen it on TV, I couldn't tell for sure but I thought it was playing pretty short.

I don't get 16; talk about disregarding the intent of the archie; it looks like it was meant to be a middle dist par 4 where placement off the tee was of utmost importance.  I never really like holes that the setup manufactures into something it is not; ala 14 at Torrey in 2008 (if I am rembering the hole correctly); just a little goofy to me.  From my view if the hole wasn't built as a driveable 4 then more often than not it doesn't work when it is manufactured into one. 

[JNC Lyon]

All I can say is that the players on tour are so spoiled.  It was only top 100 players for the Doral tournament, so they are bound to be even more spoiled.  A telltale sign is that Rickie Fowler came right out of college onto the tour and shot -15 at Phoenix.  He was not shooting -12 in three-round college tournaments, that's for sure.  The players on tour just do not play the hardest courses in the world week to week.

[jeffwarne]

Matt I agree with you, not really knowing Doral all that well, meaning I have only seen it on TV, I couldn't tell for sure but I thought it was playing pretty short.

I don't get 16; talk about disregarding the intent of the archie; it looks like it was meant to be a middle dist par 4 where placement off the tee was of utmost importance.  I never really like holes that the setup manufactures into something it is not; ala 14 at Torrey in 2008 (if I am rembering the hole correctly); just a little goofy to me.  From my view if the hole wasn't built as a driveable 4 then more often than not it doesn't work when it is manufactured into one. 

Kenny,
I'm with you on that.
We glorify restoations around here, but 16 at Doral wasn't built to be driven in the early 60's.
Sure for the longest hitters(Nicklaus) in the right conditions perhaps 16 could be driven, but it would certainly be a grillroom /lockerroom topic of conversation.
previously(1960's) there were certain strategies in play on #16, but ripping it on the green  wasn't one of them for the average TOUR player. To me moving the tee up takes away the power edge a longer hitter has if they all can drive it.
The Torrey Pines ladies tee deal was goofy too.

[Matthew Petersen]

All I can say is that the players on tour are so spoiled.  It was only top 100 players for the Doral tournament, so they are bound to be even more spoiled.  A telltale sign is that Rickie Fowler came right out of college onto the tour and shot -15 at Phoenix.  He was not shooting -12 in three-round college tournaments, that's for sure.  The players on tour just do not play the hardest courses in the world week to week.

http://www.okstate.com/sports/m-golf/mtt/fowler_rickie00.html

Here's Fowler's Okla St profile. In discussing his freshman year results we see that he had multiple -7 finishes and a -9 finish. He had a 63 that tied Vijay Singh's competitive course record at Olympia Fields.

No, not all of the tour stops are at the toughest venues or always set up to be as difficult as possible. Why is that seen as desirable?

[Matt_Ward]

All I think that should be done is play the course to some degree -- when conditions permit -- with a bit more teeth. When someone is shooting -18 for the week that's not much to ask for -- especially when it's two different par-3 holes like you see on the back nine at Doral.

[JNC Lyon]

All I can say is that the players on tour are so spoiled.  It was only top 100 players for the Doral tournament, so they are bound to be even more spoiled.  A telltale sign is that Rickie Fowler came right out of college onto the tour and shot -15 at Phoenix.  He was not shooting -12 in three-round college tournaments, that's for sure.  The players on tour just do not play the hardest courses in the world week to week.

http://www.okstate.com/sports/m-golf/mtt/fowler_rickie00.html

Here's Fowler's Okla St profile. In discussing his freshman year results we see that he had multiple -7 finishes and a -9 finish. He had a 63 that tied Vijay Singh's competitive course record at Olympia Fields.

No, not all of the tour stops are at the toughest venues or always set up to be as difficult as possible. Why is that seen as desirable?

It just seems silly that every course (tour venue or not) wants to add length to accommodate the pros when the pros won't even play from all the way back.

[Matthew Petersen]

All I can say is that the players on tour are so spoiled.  It was only top 100 players for the Doral tournament, so they are bound to be even more spoiled.  A telltale sign is that Rickie Fowler came right out of college onto the tour and shot -15 at Phoenix.  He was not shooting -12 in three-round college tournaments, that's for sure.  The players on tour just do not play the hardest courses in the world week to week.

http://www.okstate.com/sports/m-golf/mtt/fowler_rickie00.html

Here's Fowler's Okla St profile. In discussing his freshman year results we see that he had multiple -7 finishes and a -9 finish. He had a 63 that tied Vijay Singh's competitive course record at Olympia Fields.

No, not all of the tour stops are at the toughest venues or always set up to be as difficult as possible. Why is that seen as desirable?

It just seems silly that every course (tour venue or not) wants to add length to accommodate the pros when the pros won't even play from all the way back.

I'm for variety. I'm with you as far as the quest for length goes; that's just silly. And maybe this year at Doral is an example of overdoing it, but I also don't see why playing four rounds in a row from the back tip is what anyone would want from an interest standpoint.

[Matt_Ward]

Matthew P:

The issue is NOT playing all rounds from the tips ... that's not the point of this thread.

It is about playing the holes from the tips at least for one or two rounds of the event.

When someone is shooting -18 for four rounds it would not hurt the pros -- or the event for that matter.

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