What about this hole?

[Joe Bausch]

I've never seen a more interesting green.  So neat it deserves to be shown (this pic standing near the 3rd tee) at 1600 pixels wide!

[Carr Harris]

Let me ask this:

Would many of you be as complementary of this hole if it was on any course other than PV?  Having never been there I am only going off of what I see in this photo but it seems to me that most of the bunkering on the hole is excessive and unnecessary.The first third of the fairway bunkers look like they are too close to the tee to seriously be in play.  It seems like a maintenence nightmare and for no real reason.

Many of you on this site have a much better understanding of architecture than I do. Can someone please explain to me how a course like Whistling Straits can be excoriated for their bunkering scheme and yet this course is considered by many to be THE example of the great american golf course?  I'm not trying to upset anyone, I would just like to furthur my own knowledge on the subject.

[Joe Bausch]

Carr, if you haven't already done this, I would recommend you get into this area late in September and attend the Crump Cup.  Get there right as the gates open and then walk the course in reverse.  That's what I did.  Gosh, that 2nd hole is just amazing.  My favorite on a course that clearly has a lot of real good holes. 

[Kyle Harris]

Wow. How many people actually swallowed the hook on this one?

That is the absolute worst angle from which to picture that hole, too.

[Jason Topp]

Besides being a very interesting hole from tee to green, the green itself is probably one of my favorite greens in golf.  

I have never seen the hole so I do not have any opinions on the subject but I am intersted in how the hole is interesting from tee to green?  It looks like you just try to hit it in the middle of the fairway and either succeed or fail.

Jason,

For me the hole is very interesting from tee to green.  Although there aren't really options from a width standpoint, Crump presents you with other choices.  First, you have to hit it in the fairway.  The challenge becomes...WITH WHAT?  A longer hitter can hit it past the bunkers with a driver or sometimes a 3 wood.  That is a decent risk to take because it will leave you with a short approach.  The problem is if you hit it offline.  The second choice is to gear down and hit a long iron/hybrid to keep it in play.  The problem there is if you hit that club offline you are more than likely blasting a sand shot back out into the fairway.  I would guess the fairway is at least 30 yards wide between the bunkers and even wider past the bunkers.  Although once you miss that fairway a couple of times, it magically shrinks the next time you get on the tee.

Like Jim, I almost always hit driver/3 wood to fly it past the bunkers.

Jason,
The hole is a medium length hole so you can use anything from a 3 iron to driver depending how greedy you want to get. If you miss the fairway, your are in some pretty deep bunkers for a fairway and you can forget about going for the green in those bunkers.  Then there is your  approach shot.  You may have 85 yards to the green, but like Tom P said, 85 yards could be more like 125 yards because of the elevation and wind.  You also have to factor that your approach better be pretty "spot on" because that green is very large and is a 3 or 4 putt waiting to happen if you make a mistake. 
I think this is one of the most underrated holes on the course


Thanks Jamie and Rick - your descriptions help me picture the hole much more clearly.

[Carr Harris]

Joe,

Thank you for the suggestion but I fear that won't really answer my question.

 I think that I wasn't clear enough on my initial query, I was questioning the bunkering in specific rather then the entire hole. Even I'm not dumb enough to make a judgement on the green or approach based off of one birdseye photo . The fact remains that a bulk of the fairway bunkering doesn't look to be an issue for almost anyone. It may be nitpicking but I am just interested to hear why it isn't an issue there where I know it would be @ a lesser regarded course.

[Jerry Kluger]

Carr: No rakes

[Anthony Gray]

  Does look like overhanging trees would deminish the aesthetics of those bunkers. The hole looks great start to finish.

  Anthony

 

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone have a photo from the tee you can share?

Also, how does this well known hole compare, strictly from a tee strategy perspective? 







Looking at the photos I've posted, they do remind me of each other the first 3/4 of the hole.

[JESII]

There's no forced carry at Bethpage...

[Eric Smith]

Right, I see that.  But when you're on the tee at either place I imagine it's those menacing bunkers on either side of the fwy that are what's on your mind, no?

[JESII]

Yeah...my attempt at humor...sorry.

I haven't played Bethpage since the renovations, but I think the green has to play into tee decisions and I can guarantee Lucas Glover wouldn't have taken a two putt from 30 feet for granted at Pine Valley...therefore, I think he would have hit a longer club off the tee to leave something less than a 9 iron in.

Just guesses though, and I don't think speculation on how Tour players would play a hole is the most usefull, but that's all I can reference at BB.

[Ben Sims]

This is a fun exercise.  Before I rush to judgement, I'd love to see a photo more fitting of the golf hole.  This photo--I suspect--makes the hole look much more penal than it is.  This is one of the top five courses in the country on my list (along w/ NGLA, Merion, Cypress and Augusta), and bears studying as to why this hole--though obviously penal--is considered a great hole. 

My initial take is that the green is what makes the hole.  The strategy seems straightforward to me; which shot do you want to be more challenging, the approach or tee shot?

I wonder if this hole was built today, if we would be so kind to it.  But it is beautiful no doubt, and terrifying, and exhilarating.  Which is the appeal of this course right?

[Mac Plumart]

Hmmm...I find this thread interesting.

Has anyone answered Carr's question?

[Eric Smith]

Hmmm...I find this thread interesting.

Has anyone answered Carr's question?

He was asking about this place, right?

[Mac Plumart]

Now that is bunkering!!!!   

[Eric Smith]

I wonder if this hole was built today, if we would be so kind to it.

Ben,

You and I both know the answer to that.  If that was our second hole at our new B&E Golf Club, well we would first of all have a logjam at the second tee every morning and secondly we'd have a box full of comment cards wanting our asses on a stick for building such a bitch.

It looks good on Pine Valley though.  It's Pine Valley.

[Ben Sims]

I wonder if this hole was built today, if we would be so kind to it.

Ben,

You and I both know the answer to that.  If that was our second hole at our new B&E Golf Club, well we would first of all have a logjam at the second tee every morning and secondly we'd have a box full of comment cards wanting our asses on a stick for building such a bitch.

It looks good on Pine Valley though.  It's Pine Valley.

Well the thing for me is this.  I keep seeing folks write, "what a great green."  But it's about the whole she-bang right?  I've been a member of this site for a year now and lurked for another three or so.  Let me write a quick list of why I love the membership here.  We--as a group, stereotypically....

1)  Love fast and firm conditions
2)  Embrace the classical strategic style of architecture, and generally we embrace those that practice it in the modern world as well
3)  Hate forced carries
4)  Generally lament the lack of a ground game
5)  Don't really love the penal style all that much

Let's be honest guys, this hole seems to break many of the unwritten rules of what we stereotypically like around here.  I want to see/study/play Pine Valley as much as most dudes around here, honest.  It IS THE quintessential example of the great American golf course.   But hells bells, I want to have a ball left when I'm done.

[Eric Smith]

You know, perhaps like Tom Paul said earlier today, Crump may very well have been inspired by Fownes' church pews at Oakmont and implemented that type of mentally terrorizing hazard into the psyche of the golfer at Pine Valley at the second hole.





I imagine playing holes three and four at Oakmont, hell probably as soon as you get the invite to play there, you, the golfer are thinking about those church pews, much the same as you think about the tee shot at 17 Sawgrass well before you get to that hole.

That these type of features are out there makes gca interesting, controversial yes, but interesting all the same.

[JSlonis]

Carr,

The flanking bunkers are definitely an issue for most everyone.  If you find one, you are first hoping for a decent chance to hit it back to the fairway. It's extremely rare to be able to hit the green from one but it's not rare that your sand shot back to the fairway will be very demanding.  I've seen several players fail to get the ball back in play in one shot.

Here is a view from the fairway, probably 125-130 yards out. This photo is from CGA's Chip Gaskins:

[Michael Taylor]

Could somebody explain to me what is so severe about the green?

Pup

[TEPaul]

"Oh, and by the way...to me this green is the Sistine Chapel of greens but I wish it were approached with a longer club..."


Sully:

Had Crump lived you probably would've gotten your wish on that. He wanted to change the 11th hole to make it another high approach shot like the 2nd, only longer. He was thinking of a green on top of the hill near the 12th tee with an enormous bunker in front and apparently the entire left side of the hole an enormous bunker. The hole would've been a dog-leg left. He said he needed a high approach shot like this on each nine. He also said it was not necessary to see the green as long as there was a small strip in the front the golfer could see like the 2nd green. Crump felt the original 11th hole was the weakest on the course (the green was not the same as is there today).

Crump seemed to have had a mentality of demanding that a few times in the round the golfer really had to get the ball up in the air including with the driver. The iterations he at first had planned for the sixth hole was another example of that, sort of like the 4th except probably steeper.

[Joe Bausch]

Could somebody explain to me what is so severe about the green?

Pup

Pup, think of a hybrid shape from combining a Pringles and Sun chip!  

[Rick Sides]

Tom,
How amazing would the 11th hole be if Crump had carried out that plan?  I would love that hole!

[TEPaul]

"Could somebody explain to me what is so severe about the green?"


The 2nd green essentially has two big side by side front to back swales in it as its primary feature and the entire green slopes relatively severely back to front (for those greenspeeds). It's particularly steep in the entire right front. It has a big rolling shoulder on the left and a smaller terrace on the back right. The green is pretty large at 11,361 sf.

I must say I've never seen anything much like it anywhere else.

By the way, the 2nd hole was apparently Crump's favorite on the course along with the 18th (another relatively raised approach shot).