5 set of tees at Old Mac....

[Joe Bentham]

as reported by Matt Ginella here: http://bit.ly/92FWhU
what I think: http://bit.ly/8ZAo8x
Curious what you guys think.  Particularly Tom Doak.  Where tees designed or are they yet to be designed?  Or are they simply going to be the front of the fairways, as I mostly saw discussed last month?

[Jud_T]

I'm all in favor of a set of tees for juniors and seniors/ladies, but why 5 sets and 4400?  Hard to believe there's a need for more than 3 sets of tees under almost any situation.  My son is 11, drives the ball about 160 and happily plays from 5200 yards....

[Thomas McQuillan]

“Every one of the teeing grounds that are for the Littles are in the fairways and are not distinguishable from anywhere else on the golf course,” says Urbina. “At Old Macdonald I blended them in the fairway so when the Littles walk up there, they’ll see a little disk, they’ll plop their tee in the ground and they’ll whack away.”

[Thomas McQuillan]

4400 yards? you'd have to be pretty crap to even consider pegging up from there.

[Jon Nolan]

...if you lose a ton of balls it is because you SPRAYED it all over the place and didn’t look very hard. Players shooting 100 playing the same golf ball all day happens here every day.

I'm a 14 or so index and played three rounds there a couple of weeks ago - the first in absolutely miserable conditions.  

Daily scores:  ~104, 89, 95
Lost ball count: 0, 0, 0

I guess it doesn't hurt to install unobtrusive 4400 yard tees but I don't see too many people hanging about the joint who look like they would be interested in playing them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120311057048072255.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Not a new idea.....Here I am quoted regarding the same concept two years ago, well after it was news to me.

Do the math on the 4400 yard tee from the woman's perspective.....

14 Tee Shots, Max of 140 Yards = 1960 Yards
22 Approach Shots of Average 110 Yards = 2440 Yards

Total Course Yardage for average women to play in par - 4380 Yards

A 5600 yard course for women is like an 8000 yard course for men. If we bitch about length for men, why do we force women to play overly long courses for them?

Glad to see Old Mac jump on board!

Other benefits are that senior men who hit it 160 or so move up.  Together, that is ovr 60% of your play saving at least 8 shots a game x 3 minutes per shot or nearly 25 minutes.....the 4.5 hour round of golf becomes the 4 hour round and we have achieved the holy grail......

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv:

Average round is 4.5 hours or 270 minutes....Average score is 90 or thereabouts.  Average time of shots is therefore 3 minutes. It sounds right to me if you include travel time, walking off the green to the cart or next tee, etc. If the average score is 100, then that number goes down a bit.

[Mike Hamilton]

I have been playing with my sons, now 7 and 9 since they were 5 or 6.  US Kids hold tournaments with the recommended distances for 9 holes.

Boys 10 2500
Boys 9 1900
Boys 8 1900
Boys 7 1500
Boys 6 under 1100

So having a 4400 set of tees is a nice addition for getting younger kids out.  And while it's also pretty easy to just find a flat spot near an appropriate yard marker and stick a tee in the ground, I can attest that it is meaningful to them to be playing from actual tees.

However, as much as I'm a proponent of getting them out there, at $220, they are not likely to be playing at Old Mac in prime time .

[Ben Sims]

4400 yards? you'd have to be pretty crap to even consider pegging up from there.

Old Mac at 4400 yards would be the best "short" course in history.  If I have three tee times there on my next trip--which I do--I'd love to play the back tees, the "next to back" (where  normally play) and the 4400.  Man that'd be fun.

[PCCraig]

What's wrong with having an extra set of "short" tees? Quite frankly if a man is shooting in the 100's from 6500+ yards he should be playing teeing it up from there.

Whenever I make it out there with my wife in tow, Lord knows she'll play from the 4400 yard tees as regardless of where I play from she very much enjoys standing at my ball and seeing hers 40 yards past it. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Ben,
I'd hope that your third round of the day, the twilight round, would be from the 44s.  If any other time, you'd be crawling up backsides from that short a tee yardage.

[Ben Sims]

Ronald,

Yeah I get what you are saying.  The argument for the tees when you're paying $200 and you're more than capable from handling it at 6500 or so isn't so compelling.  I guess I'm thinking of playing that course with a 4 iron, 7 iron, wedge, putter at 4400 as a second or third round.

[Sean_A]

Well, unless this course is a product of witchcraft, I can envision a lot of long walks up fairways without hitting shots.  I spose its better than walking back to hit shots, but only because the clubhouse gets further away.  In a nutshell, not ideal imo.  Plus, I have to wonder about folks paying to bring their kids who are only old enough to play at 4400 yards.  Isn't Bandon expensive?  Perhaps there is a great rate on offer for the wee ones.  I prefer as few sets of tees as is reasonable if they are moving up and down the course.  If they move laterally, that is a totally different story.  The goal is to get golfers to think about angles and the challenges they present and away from thinking about yardage as the prime element of challenge.

Ciao

[Joe Bentham]

Other benefits are that senior men who hit it 160 or so move up.  Together, that is ovr 60% of your play saving at least 8 shots a game x 3 minutes per shot or nearly 25 minutes.....the 4.5 hour round of golf becomes the 4 hour round and we have achieved the holy grail......

What makes you think they'll move up?

Well, unless this course is a product of witchcraft, I can envision a lot of long walks up fairways without hitting shots......The goal is to get golfers to think about angles and the challenges they present and away from thinking about yardage as the prime element of challenge.

Golfers who clamor for a set of tees for everybody are also the same golfers that pull out three wood on every par 5 or think you have to try and hit your second shot on a par 4 all the way to the green every time.  They are also probably preoccupied with the scorecard.
An aging golfer should have to figure out different ways to score as they get older.  They shouldn't simply be appeased with tees closer and closer to the hole.

[Lyne Morrison]

There are bigger issues at play here.

Flexible tee arrangements and forward tees assist short hitters in their enjoyment of the game. Research tells us that those who enjoy their golf will remain involved with the game for longer, supporting the industry along the way. I commend Jann Leeming and Arthur Little for their influence at Old Mac and Mike Keiser for his interest in the subject.

The trick is to implement such an initiative in a satisfactory manner while preserving the integrity of the course. Golfers who choose to use these tees should be provided a reasonable level of challenge and not be left with the impression they are an afterthought or a client / member of lesser value.

Lyne

[Sean_A]

There are bigger issues at play here.

Flexible tee arrangements and forward tees assist short hitters in their enjoyment of the game. Research tells us that those who enjoy their golf will remain involved with the game for longer, supporting the industry along the way. I commend Jann Leeming and Arthur Little for their influence at Old Mac and Mike Keiser for his interest in the subject.

The trick is to implement such an initiative in a satisfactory manner while preserving the integrity of the course. Golfers who choose to use these tees should be provided a reasonable level of challenge and not be left with the impression they are an afterthought or a client / member of lesser value.

Lyne

Lyne

I agree, there are bigger issues here. 

So why not just build shorter courses?  The problem isn't necessarily with shorter tees.  The problem is folks thinking they can accommodate all golfers with different tees instead of with the design of the holes as a whole.  

Ciao

[Lyne Morrison]

Sean,

I agree it would be good to see more quality shorter courses. I suspect many golfers perceive these as being of lesser standing though, than the ‘real’ product – the one with an accepted yardage or traditional par on the card. So -- possibly ideal for a vacation game but not the monthly medal.

Why is this? Perhaps it’s due to the fact that we live in such an aspirational society and the influence this culture brings to golf and course design. When you consider the overall commercialisation of the game, the awe of length at an elite level and the ‘need’ or expectation for the regular golfer to be included in this experience you can see how added demands are placed on project planning and outcomes.

What The Little Family Foundation together with Frank Thomas has presented is data that brings an element of reality back to the discussion – it is asking us to think more deeply about what we are doing and where we are headed. That’s a good thing in my view.

Cheers

[Mike Benham]

4400 yards? you'd have to be pretty crap to even consider pegging up from there.

at 4,400 yards, it might make some of the "short drivable par-4s" actually short and drivable ...