Is there a bad links course?

[Emil Weber]

Was just wondering.

I know many people believe that there is no such thing like a bad golf course, and I tend to agree with that. But is there a links that could be described as a waste of the land it's built on?

[Adam Clayman]

Such a low bar you've set, Emil. Since Links land is defined as land which is of no use.
Being on open coastal ground, (implies wind) with a target in mind, the only way the golf course could be "bad" is if someone tried to dictate how I choose to tact my way.

Are there any of those?

[Niall C]

Adam

I've got to take issue with your definition. Links might not be any use for growing crops but its certainly been put to many other uses other than leisure. At St Andrews the links nearly became one big rabbit farm at one point as well as being used as a drying green for the locals. Other courses were used invariably for drying including many that were used for drying fishing nets, Buckie being one of those. Many of the early links courses including Troon, Turnberry, Brora (I believe sheep still graze there) and probably most other links at the turn of the 19th century were used for grazing livestock. The newly built Machrihanish Dunes had cattle on it right up to the point of construction.

Indeed if the links weren't being used for grazing, shepherds wouldn't have invented the game (apparently) and even if they had the links would have been unplayable as the grass would have been too long.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  Is the Troon Portland course links

  Anthony

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I can think of one: Warren Park on the Wirral. It's a 9-hole municipal, the maintenance is appalling and there are some ludicrous design features. It has the topography to be a fun course. Instead it is largely bland apart from two mad ball-swallowing blind holes.

[Niall C]

  Is the Troon Portland course links

  Anthony

Anthony

Good question, I would say it was but being a bit backlying from the sea it tends to be a bit flatter than the Old Course and I don't think the turf is quite as good. Have you played the muni's at Troon ? All three of them are over the train line fronm the Portland and out of 54 holes theres only about 3 that you would say weren't links.

BTW, I would suggest the definitive answer on whats a links course or not is Robert Prices excellent book on Scotlands Courses. Sorry, the proper title has gone right out of my head.

Niall

[Carl Nichols]

Was just wondering.

I know many people believe that there is no such thing like a bad golf course, and I tend to agree with that. But is there a links that could be described as a waste of the land it's built on?

What about a non-links course on linksland?

[Emil Weber]

Was just wondering.

I know many people believe that there is no such thing like a bad golf course, and I tend to agree with that. But is there a links that could be described as a waste of the land it's built on?

What about a non-links course on linksland?

if its on linksland, why isn't it a links? and yes I would count that...

[Niall C]

Was just wondering.

I know many people believe that there is no such thing like a bad golf course, and I tend to agree with that. But is there a links that could be described as a waste of the land it's built on?

What about a non-links course on linksland?

Carl

That begs the question, what makes a links a links ? Is it the turf, the soil, the design or perhaps all three ? I've said it before that Dundonald was built on a pile of sand but has holes which wouldn't look out of place on a modern layout in the middle of America while Kingsbarns which is not quite as fortunate in agronomy terms fools most people who play it that its a links.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Not sure if it's a "real" links, but in my opinion Ballybunion Cashen functions better as a goat sanctuary than as a golf course....

[Adam Clayman]

Niall, I don't believe I deserve the credit for narrowing the definition, or using those words to describe the term. My point, which you later asked on another post "What is links golf?"

[Ross Tuddenham]

I guess there are bad links in terms of one being a poor example of a links course.  The links course I have been most disappointed with in playing it was the strathtyrum course at St Andrews.  Not sure i would go as far as to call it a bad course in general though.

[JNC Lyon]

Robert Price defines a links as land that is immediately inland from the sea, underlain with sand and gravel, and comprised of hollows, ridges, and mounds.  He defines it briefly in his 2002 Feature Interview for GCA.  I am guessing his book has a more extensive definition of the term.  From that definition, I think it would be impossible to have a non-links course on links land.

In my understanding, a course is deemed to be a links by the type of land it sits on.  It has nothing to do with the design of the golf course.  Many golfers in the US believe any sparsely-treed golf course is a links course.  These people are way off base.  A links course must sit beside the sea on sand and gravel soil.  The land must be low-lying but undulating.  Any course that does not meet these requirements is not a links course.

[Carl Nichols]

So JNC, if you took Matt Ward to Scotland and had him lay out a replica of "The Champ" on linksland, it would be a links course? To me, the land is a necessary but not sufficient part of being a links -- the design also matters.

I'll readily admit that this may have no historical or other support!

[JNC Lyon]

What design principles do links courses share?  Maybe a reliance on the ground game is one.  However, that is a given due to the nature of the land.

[PCCraig]

Re: Is there a bad links course?

No...just bad weather days

[Simon Holt]

I can think of a few that I wouldnt go back to but wouldnt want to embarrass myself or anyone else by bashing their course.

Mostly not I feel- purely because of the age of links courses in GB&I there was little movement of the land due to the lack of machinery I would guess.  This probably prevented them from making a mess of it so they went with what we all knows works best- mother nature.

As mentioned in another thread- I love the look of Pebble having walked it but never played it many times.  I do not class it as links though, as they do at the resort.  Again, I would love them to turn the sprinklers off a few weeks before the US Open and see how the ball reacted on some of the cambered fairways like 9- kicking down towards the ocean rather than stopping where it landed.

Growing up I was always told them the linksland was that between the sea and the fertile land, 'linking' the two.  The land wasnt much use for anything so they dried nets, grazed sheep etc.  Hence the first bunkers being shelter holes for the sheep.  No hard fact- just what I heard growing up here.

[Mark Molyneux]

I'd suggest that Brigantine in New Jersey is / was, by most definitions, a true links course. I won't offend by saying that it's a "bad" links course but it doesn't have the pedigree of most of the classic links. The word that I'd use is "disappointing" inasmuch as they've allowed too much construction around the course. I can imagine in its heyday, Bringantine WAS the place to gather some game before heading over to the Open Championship. Real estate pros have done a load of dumb stuff in New Jersey like ordering up "blow away houses" on the coastline but what they did to Brigantine borders on unforgiveable.

Would I still go play there? Yes! It's as close as I can get to a true links without an airline ticket.

[Ally Mcintosh]

This has reverted to the "what is a links" conversation again... so, as always, i will reinstate my belief / answer:

The "links", whether golfing or non-golfing, is the land that links the sea and the arable farming land... and that is that...

With regards to golfing alone, you could argue that it was adopted to mean ALL golf courses... Certainly Darwin, MacDonald et al referred to the links even when they were talking of inland courses...

[Sean_A]

I have come across many links which didn't impress me, but none that I thought were poor courses. 

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

I guess there are bad links in terms of one being a poor example of a links course.  The links course I have been most disappointed with in playing it was the strathtyrum course at St Andrews.  Not sure i would go as far as to call it a bad course in general though.

ROSS  The Strath is the perfect introduction to links golf nd is very important to the St Andrews golf scene.  It fits its purpose!  A lot of kids think it's wonderful!   and a lot of old golfers also continue to enjoy the Strath!

[Ross Tuddenham]

Hi

Gary I totally agree and when I played it as a 13/14 year old I had the most enjoyable day.  That is why I said it was not a bad course.  When I played it more recently a couple of years back I did not find it as good as I did the first time.  But  that was never likely.  My thinking was if I could think of the my least favourite links course I could answer the original question.

The more recent playing of the Strath although not the most fun I have ever had was a nice round. So I guess for me even the lesser links course are still great fun and an enjoyable change to my normal inland golfing.  The chance to play different shots no matter the course or setting is enjoyable.

[Adam Clayman]

In my understanding, a course is deemed to be a links by the type of land it sits on.  It has nothing to do with the design of the golf course.  Many golfers in the US believe any sparsely-treed golf course is a links course.  These people are way off base.  A links course must sit beside the sea on sand and gravel soil.  The land must be low-lying but undulating.  Any course that does not meet these requirements is not a links course.

Way off base?

[JNC Lyon]

Adam,

What golf course is this?  It appears to be in the heartland of the US, Nebraska or Colorado.  Does the course share the playing characteristics of a links course?  There are many courses that do, many of which are parkland.  Does that make them links courses? I would say no.

[Kalen Braley]

JNC,

Thats Ballyneal...of which the course used to reside in and then near a sea...many eons ago!!   

I do agree though, most folks think any treeless course is "linkstyle" which the vast majority of the time, at least here in the US, is completly wrong.