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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,

Cameron says thanks.  I now have an insufferable son to put up with for the evening.

I'm interested in the 19th roots of the Craighead?  What other work did Hanse do before 1900? :P
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Melvyn Morrow

Mark

I knew you would pick up on the Crail/Elie photos, well that was the plan - so thinking you would find it easy I set a trap by making the 11th photo from the 1990's. I did not realise that you would stumble and your son would shine. Age starting to creep up so be careful or you may soon find yourself having to use cart (all the time  ;) ).

I expected all to fall on the Cruden Bay photo but Tim got it.

Take care all

Melvyn

Tim Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn
I have roughly the exact same photo from my round in May 07.

Thanks for posting the pics.

Tim

TEPaul

"As for my comment it would appear that I may have more of an understanding of the way some of the courses were designed and construction back in the 19th Century. Greens were constructed, models as well as drawings made, so I would say that some form of scientific process was in place."



Melvyn:

Drawings made for 19th century architecture?

If you're aware of anything like that which is more of an architectural drawing than just a basic stick routing I certainly would like to be aware of it and who did it.

With this USGA Architecture Archive effort, one of the important questions that came up was who did the first comprehensive drawings of a course pre-constrution and/or the individual holes of a course pre-construction that showed some good architectural detail?

If you have some examples of that from some of the 19th century architects over there I sure would like to know about it for the very reason mentioned above. That would be a pretty remarkable find, for sure.

To date, most feel the first to do some comprehensive architectural drawings may've been the so-called heathland guys and probably just after the turn of the century.

Melvyn Morrow


Tom

I again say "As for my comment it would appear that I may have more of an understanding of the way some of the courses were designed and construction back in the 19th Century. Greens were constructed, models as well as drawings made, so I would say that some form of scientific process was in place."

Do not believe me then please do your own research, but do not assume that becasue you do not have anything, that they do not exist. There is a lot of information out there. 

Melvyn


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn -

You have been very generous about sharing old newspaper articles and photos on this site. If you have access to old design drawings and renderings, I am sure there would be many people on this site who would be very interested in seeing them.

DT

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
C.2..3a&b Tain
C.2..4 Royal Dornoch
C.2..6 Strathpeffer

Eoin, welcome to the fun house!   ;D

Which hole at Dornoch?  I'm trying to picture a hole that heads back in that direction (water left), hole in opposite direction but not 2, 3, 4 or 5.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill M. -

As I noted above, picture 2.4 is the 14th green (Foxy), taken from the center/right side of the green.  :)

DT  

Melvyn Morrow


David

I feel the days of sharing info on this site is coming to an end

Melvyn

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill M. -

As I noted above, picture 2.4 is the 14th green (Foxy), taken from the center/right side of the green.  :)

DT  

Got it.  I was always way left so didn't see this angle!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill M. -

Way left of #14 green with your 2nd shot is usually the smart play. :)

DT

TEPaul

"Tom

I again say "As for my comment it would appear that I may have more of an understanding of the way some of the courses were designed and construction back in the 19th Century. Greens were constructed, models as well as drawings made, so I would say that some form of scientific process was in place."

Do not believe me then please do your own research, but do not assume that becasue you do not have anything, that they do not exist. There is a lot of information out there."



Melvyn:

It's not a matter of believing you. You said drawings were made. What kind of drawings and where are they?

If there were detailed drawings done of architecture pre-construction in the 19th century then what happened to them? Where is the evidence detailed pre-construction drawings were done in the 19th century that're anything like what an architect like Colt did right after the turn of the century, and there are examples of them around so that's proof? To date golf architecture analysts seem to think he and some of the heathland architects were the first to make detailed hole and whole course drawings like that. Apparently they feel that way because they've never seen that kind of thing from any other 19th century architects. The earliest examples of pre-construction comprehensive architectural drawings are pretty important to know about and track down by someone; anyone.

Neither you nor anyone else has to give them to me or anyone else in particular but somebody has got to be aware of where they are or if they ever existed.  

« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 06:54:41 PM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow


Tom

Are these the same people that said the 19th century guys designed a course AM and played a competition PM? If it is I would do your own research.

Melvyn


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill M. -

Way left of #14 green with your 2nd shot is usually the smart play. :)

DT

With a par and two bogies I felt like I was -1.   ;D

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
If pre-20th-century whole architectual drawings exist that are more "scientific" than the OTM stick routings where are they being horded? Why are they being horded and by whom? If something of that nature actually does exist but is being kept secret one has to wonder what the motive is. One could only suspect it's for financial gain or something of the sort that is inconsistent with the purity of the game and it's soul. 

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here we go again....

Like many others without an axe to grind I would be very interested to see architectural drawings dating from the 19th century.  It would seem that they would be of very serious interest to many on this site and would go to the very core of what this site is all about.

Melvyn,

If you have them, I'd be fascinated to see them.

TEP,  Ian,

I'm not sure whether your approach to Melvyn is the best way to get access to these drawings.  But maybe that's not your intent?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn has always been very generous in sharing on this site...

...If he has something which is as important as you all seem to think (and there is a difference between stick plans, masterplans and detail drawings so I don't know what you search), then I'm sure he will donate / find the right home for it once he has decided what that is...

Melvyn Morrow


Mark, Ally

Thank you, But I regret that I no longer find this site my home re GCA & golf. Many seem happy to see my departure, and some are nothing short of blood rude.

My interest in golf goes way past playing the game which I have not been able to do for a few years now.

As for what is available its not all within my direct family and yes to some money is a key factor, but if an OTM golf club can be sold for £70,000 I do not blame other members of the family - do you guys really think that the current members of GCA.com are worthy of any more generosity - I certainly do not.

Melvyn   

TEPaul

Melvyn:

I'm sorry you again feel this site is not your home for GCA and golf. If that's really the way you feel then you should just do what's best for you.

But for me and numerous others I'm aware of we'd just like to understand better how golf architecture evolved and that includes understanding how things were done at various time in that evolution. Things like drawings and even models are pretty important factors in that evolution and pretty important factors in understanding it.

You say you're aware that 19th century architects did drawings and models. I'm aware that some of them may've done basic stick routings but who did comprehensive architectural drawings of either holes or whole courses the way the likes of Colt did after the turn of the century? Those drawings included yardages, bunker placements, the width dimensions of fairways, fairly developed green designs etc and all on paper pre-construction.

Who did things like that in the 19th century?

You also mentioned some independent information on models that one of the Foulis brothers did for OTM 20 years before plasticine was invented. Plasticine was apparently invented and patented in 1899 in England so that must mean Foulis did models with some kind of similar material around 1880. What was it and where is any evidence of that kind of thing?

Don't worry, I certainly do understand the you're sensitive to the fact you believe some on here or wherever don't seem to appreciate the work or the talent of some of the early 19th century architects like OTM, the Dunns, Davises etc who many think laid out numerous courses quickly and then went home to their regular jobs as pros or whatever. I'm quite sure some of those men may've spent more time on the architecture of some courses particularly if it happened to be a course they worked at as pros/greenskeeper/clubmakers/teachers etc.

Despite that if they really did do drawings, even stick drawings but particularly more sophisticated pre-construction architectural drawings like Colt did who many feel may've been close to the first to do such things, then I think golf architectural analysts will need to go on more than just hearsay about that.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 06:25:44 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
TEP
We've discussed this before. It is believed B. Hall Blythe created the first formal plan in the early 1890s at Muirfield. He was profiled in my essay on architects of the 1890s. If you are interested I believe a good version of that plan is in one of Muirfield history books (and other books if memory serves me).

Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is there a distinction to be made between whether a designer considered things "scientifically" and whether he made full fledged architectural drawings?  I would have thought you could do the former without the latter.  Angles, hazard placements, and green sites can be carefully considered without detailed drawings, which presumably became more necessary with the development of machinery and the need to issue instructions to third parties who would actually construct new holes. Old Tom at Prestwick surely would have sized things up scientifically, at least the way the term is used in turn of (the last) century golf writing.  And even when doing one of his quickies, the same design principles would have come into play, even if he wasn't paid to be so painstaking about it.

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn

I have not posted much on here but I certainly value the information you have passed onto me and would not wish to see you depart the site.  You have vast knowledge of the history of the game GCA related and not, both of which are interesting to me.

Plus really liking the picture games.  :)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lots of today's best designers don't prepare "fully fledged architectural drawings"... It depends entirely on the contracting strategy...

TEPaul

"TEP
We've discussed this before. It is believed B. Hall Blythe created the first formal plan in the early 1890s at Muirfield. He was profiled in my essay on architects of the 1890s. If you are interested I believe a good version of that plan is in one of Muirfield history books (and other books if memory serves me)."



That's just the kind of thing I'm interested in to determine the very beginnings of architectural drawings. It certainly makes some sense that a man like B. Hall Blythe might've done the first fairly sophisticated architectural drawing as he was a professional civil engineer.

However, it isn't particularly clear on the drawing of Muirfield if it was done in 1891 or even done by Blythe. It's hard to tell but I don't see a date on that drawing or a name. It's possible someone may've done it later from the golf course plan on the ground that Blythe was involved in. 

It's an interesting example too as it is essentially a glorified stick routing but with yardages on the holes and rather artistic drawing of bunkers and such. Was it done pre-construction to what Blythe did there or was it drawn after the fact?

TEPaul

"Is there a distinction to be made between whether a designer considered things "scientifically" and whether he made full fledged architectural drawings?  I would have thought you could do the former without the latter."


Richard Phinney:

To your question I would say, not necessarily. I think one could do the former without the latter and ironically today some prefer to do it that way without using highly detailed preconstruction drawings or being locked into them. One really good example would seemingly be Bill Coore. He certainly is capable of doing detailed enough pre-construction drawings (although he sometimes seems to deny that ;) ) but often says he would prefer not to unless something like a permitting entity demands them.

Matter of fact, personally I don't know that I would even describe the way Coore designs holes and courses as "scientific," at least in the way I think of scientific in some of its more extreme applications and degrees. I say that because once I was walking Hidden Creek with the project foreman and I started talking about some of the nuancy strategies on some holes and the project manager said he thought Bill had gone beyond strategy. When I asked him what he meant by that he said that he felt Bill might have gotten into dabbling with randomness just to see what would happen and how it might work out in play.  ;)

If one wants to call that "scientific" then that's their opinion but I might prefer to say it is only scientific in that it is a real acknowledgement of the  randomness of Nature itself which is not something I'd call "scientific," at least not in the way I'm contemplating it and using the term and philosophy on here about golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:27:48 AM by TEPaul »