[Patrick_Mucci]

The discussions on the DA at PV and Pete Dye's conversation on the greens at Seminole got me thinking about Dick Wilson.

I happen to think he's one of the underrated architects in golf and I'm very fond of the courses of his that I've played.

But, I was wondering.  Why did Dick Wilson come to Seminole ?
Certainly, he didn't make a wrong turn on A1A.

Was he brought in for general consulting or a specific project/s ?

If he was brought in for a specific project, would Seminole confine his work to just that project, or would they entertain suggestions regarding issues beyond the project.

If he was brought in for general consulting, why was he brought in ?
That's course that needs few if any amendments in order to be enjoyed.
Was it due to the condition of the course post WWII or did the club have a preconceived notion ?

His work on # 18 appears to be exceptional.
He transformed a benign or mundane hole into a wonderful, sporting challenge.
And, he provided a terrific range with a great location

And, why Dick Wilson ?  Why not other prominent architects of the time ?
Or, were other architects consulted with, with Wilson getting the work ?

Are there any local newspaper articles discussing this subject ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

If there are any newspaper accounts of Wilson and Seminole I'm not aware of them but that doesn't mean anything.

As to what the problems were at Seminole after WW2 and why Wilson was brought in, I can tell you that just about first hand, or call it second hand if you want to call my own father second hand when it comes to Dick Wilson. They were good friends as were a bunch of my father's friends and Dick Wilson and they talked about all that stuff around the time Wilson was their favorite and they got him to do Pine Tree with them.

I'd be glad to tell you all about it but not in the context and midst of your petty and constant verbal dialetics and argumentations on here. I could IM or email it to you because I'm really sick of your time wasting dialetic shennanigans on here on this DG. If you really want to know the answers to your questions I can tell you----if not I'm not interested in wasting my time or anyone else's on here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

What surprises me about # 18 at Seminole is the date the work was done.

In 1947 golf was still a match play game, with the professional game just starting to build momentum, and as such, "18th" holes didn't carry the weight they carry today, in a medal play and TV world.

Where did the idea of altering # 18 spring from ?
Was it internal, from within Seminole or was Wilson the person who first proposed the alteration ?

[TEPaul]

"Where did the idea of altering # 18 spring from ?
Was it internal, from within Seminole or was Wilson the person who first proposed the alteration?"


Pat:

I'll tell you the way I heard it and this goes back a long way over the years but it was a story I heard many, many years ago and sometimes in later years but I definitely do not want to get into some multi-page thread with you and others about it having to rise to some level of courtroom "proof."

But considering who the people are I've heard it from over the years it sure sounds logical and informed to me given all the circumstances or some problems apparently perceived by the club (actually you touched on potentially one of them above).

Coming out of WW2 Seminole was pretty much a mess and I guess because like many other courses it had been essentially "moth-balled" and unused during the world war years for America (1941-1945).

The job of getting it all back in order was given to Chris Dunphy or else he just took it upon himself to do it, perhaps because no one else at the club felt like doing it----eg the latter point was always part of the story too.

As I recall from the original Ross plan for the course (which I have around here somewhere but can't find right now) the practice range wasn't much and frankly it may've even been planned in the area where Hogan used to hit balls (between the 1st and 9th holes) or else that was one of perhaps two small ranges (one for #1 and one for #10. Interestingly enough Ross even designed a massive crescent shaped melded tee for #1 and #10!

The original Ross 18th green was pretty close to what they use as the range today----viz. Do you know that little chipping and pitching green they have to the right of the practice tee? I think the original Ross 18th green was right about in there.

And that might've been the real reason or one of them that they decided to get Wilson to move the 18th green left and up against the back of the dunes. In other words, that had become their basic problem to solve and in the course of it Wilson may've somewhat improved the range because when the 18th green was moved left and into the back of the dunes maybe 30-40 yards that freed up the space for a much larger practice tee, and eventually even a practice chipping/pitching/bunker practice green basically around the spot Ross's original 18th green once was. That kind of thing is not exactly in the higher reaches of GCA conceptual art and science, it is actually a pretty obvious fix for a fairly common problem.

By the way, the original tee on #18 was to the right of the 17th green. The hole was essentially straight. I think it was Wilson who put the tees to #18 to the left of #17 and up in the dunes making the hole a gentle dogleg left from a sort of dune tee to a sort of dune green.

Do you know where Dick Wilson was before the war and during the war and what he was doing during the war or would you like me to explain that to you too? It's fairly interesting and may help explain why he was brought into Seminole to bring it back right after the war.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, fascinating stuff.  Hope to hear more. 

[TEPaul]

"Tom, fascinating stuff.  Hope to hear more."


Timmo:

I really ain't got much more unless you want to hear some of the stories about people around Seminole like the Duke of Windsor and the shoeshine guy or Sir John Thuron and a few of his semi-failed vaguely aristocratic English minions who used to pad their handicaps and hang around that place trying to generate a bit of needed cash betting some of the rich members at golf or backgammon or whatever.  

I remember one of them so well in my mind's-eye right now. I wish I could remember his name. He was one of those marvelous and attractive Englishmen (who was probably like a fourth or fifth son of English gentry who'd gotten hammered by Primogeniture) with a hyphenated last name who would oil his way around that club oozing that amazing and inimitable English accent and charm from every pore.

My Dad was on the handicap committee with some of his close buddies and they just got sick of it after a while and one day they just arbitrarily cut his handicap down to zero for the rest of the season. You just should have heard that guy squeal. He wouldn't stop all day---it was like they just killed his entire patrimony or something.

The characters and dynamics were just great though----and they all pretty much enjoyed one another. The humor, and the constant "put-ons," generally pretty subtle, basically never stopped.

For instance, that guy's hyphenated last name amused them so much they took to just calling him "The Hyphen," and right to his face, of course. I think he actually, or at least secretly, really enjoyed that handle though.

[Bill_McBride]

I think the only Dick Wilson course I've played was the original Blue course at Doral, prior to all the tinkering by what seems like dozens of pros since then.

I really enjoyed that course, one of the first true Florida courses I had played at the time (this was in 1974 and I still lived in Northern California).

From the very first hole I loved it.  About 80 yards out in two on that opening par 5, all I could see in front of me was what seemed like an acre of sand and a lonely pin with the flag flapping in the breeze.  Once I got across those overlapping front bunkers, I could see how big the green was, very wide, but from the fairway there was no way.   

I thought the course was really good, haven't played it since about 1980 but I hear it's a mess these days.

[JC Jones]

The discussions on the DA at PV and Pete Dye's conversation on the greens at Seminole got me thinking about Dick Wilson.

I happen to think he's one of the underrated architects in golf and I'm very fond of the courses of his that I've played.

But, I was wondering.  Why did Dick Wilson come to Seminole ?
Certainly, he didn't make a wrong turn on A1A.

Was he brought in for general consulting or a specific project/s ?

If he was brought in for a specific project, would Seminole confine his work to just that project, or would they entertain suggestions regarding issues beyond the project.

If he was brought in for general consulting, why was he brought in ?
That's course that needs few if any amendments in order to be enjoyed.
Was it due to the condition of the course post WWII or did the club have a preconceived notion ?

His work on # 18 appears to be exceptional.
He transformed a benign or mundane hole into a wonderful, sporting challenge.
And, he provided a terrific range with a great location

And, why Dick Wilson ?  Why not other prominent architects of the time ?
Or, were other architects consulted with, with Wilson getting the work ?

Are there any local newspaper articles discussing this subject ?

There was an advisory committee formed of Seminole members to discuss improvements to the course at it was, generally, in disrepair after the war.  Wilson had moved down to Florida after the war, continuing his work with Flynn and Toomey.  During this time he became very good friends with Chris Dunphy.  Dunphy was, of course, the head of the committee which pretty much made it a committee of one.

We all know the 18th green was moved.  In addition to that, several greens were worked on, as well as several bunkers.  Absolutely no changes were made to the contours, size, shape, etc. to the greens.  The only changes were to get them to be consistent playing surfaces.  Apparently there were multiple strains of bermuda on the greens with grain going multiple ways and the playing surfaces were a wreck.  Dunphy thought the course was sacrosanct and therefore did not want any changes to the original design.

Wilson also did some work on the bunkers.  He didn't feel bunkers should be hidden so those bunkers that couldn't be seen from the tee or the fairway (respectively) were flashed up a little bit.

All in all, Wilson didn't do much and his role as architect adviser to Dunphy's committee was more ceremonial for Dunphy to help his friend than anything else.

[Chuck Brown]

As many know, Tom Doak has alluded to statements made by Pete Dye that Wilson did extensive work at Seminole.  Has anyone ever sat with Pete to record his views on that subject in any detail?  Does Pete's membership at Seminole make it sort of off limits for him to comment publicly, in distinction to places like his own marquee designs (Harbour Town, Whislting Straits, Casa de Campo, etc., etc., etc.)?

[Tim Liddy]

Mr. Dye’s basic premise is the greens at Seminole have been top dressed so heavy and so often over the years their surface are not the original design any longer. The main person responsible for this top dressing (sometimes very heavy on Bermuda) over the early years was a maintenance tractor operator named Amos Jones. Mr. Dye feels he is more responsible for the design of the greens today than Donald Ross.

As a side note, when Mr. Dye is not happy with my work and we are with a client he will kid me and call me ‘Amos Jones”.  I immediately know he is not happy with whatever feature we are discussing, while the client is unaware of his dissatisfaction.

[Michael Dugger]

I recall someone posting a link to an article about 3-5 yrs ago outlining the undoing of all this top dressing.

I remember a comment about how the bunkers were so beat down before this work was done that the membership was putting out of 'em .

[JC Jones]

Mr. Dye’s basic premise is the greens at Seminole have been top dressed so heavy and so often over the years their surface are not the original design any longer. The main person responsible for this top dressing (sometimes very heavy on Bermuda) over the early years was a maintenance tractor operator named Amos Jones. Mr. Dye feels he is more responsible for the design of the greens today than Donald Ross.

As a side note, when Mr. Dye is not happy with my work and we are with a client he will kid me and call me ‘Amos Jones”.  I immediately know he is not happy with whatever feature we are discussing, while the client is unaware of his dissatisfaction.

I don't understand this.  If the top dressing is applied evenly across the green then the contours would not change.  If point A is 10 inches above point B and 1 inch of topdressing is added to both point A and point B the point A is still 10 inches above point B.

[JC Jones]

I recall someone posting a link to an article about 3-5 yrs ago outlining the undoing of all this top dressing.

I remember a comment about how the bunkers were so beat down before this work was done that the membership was putting out of 'em .

The person whom I talked to, who was working for Dick Wilson at the time, made no indication of this and seemed to minimize the work done to the bunkers.

[Chuck Brown]

I didn't mean to be mysterious in my post just above, referencing Tom Doak and Pete Dye.  I have no personal knowledge; here is Tom in The Confidential Guide (p. 145):

"My friends Ron Whitten and Pete Dye both swear that most of present-day Seminole is the work of Dick Wilson, who secretly rebuilt much of the course after World War II..." 

(Mind you, it is only a single sentence from his review entry on Seminole.  There's more to it, and if this was our favorite author-architect being a bit chatty, well, that was part of the genius of the book anyway.)

[Tim Liddy]

JC,

The heavy topdressing was not applied evenly. Green surface lows became shallower (filled in) and the highs were reduced (tractor dragged topdressing off the highs). Over time the perimeter of the green shapes was also changed depending on how the tractor turned on and off the green (dragging the topdressing on and off the edges). This is evident if you look at old aerials of the original greens. Later, when bunkers were remodeled they matched revised green shapes, not original green shapes, which have compounded the changes over time.

[Gary Slatter]

I think the only Dick Wilson course I've played was the original Blue course at Doral, prior to all the tinkering by what seems like dozens of pros since then.

I really enjoyed that course, one of the first true Florida courses I had played at the time (this was in 1974 and I still lived in Northern California).

From the very first hole I loved it.  About 80 yards out in two on that opening par 5, all I could see in front of me was what seemed like an acre of sand and a lonely pin with the flag flapping in the breeze.  Once I got across those overlapping front bunkers, I could see how big the green was, very wide, but from the fairway there was no way.   

I thought the course was really good, haven't played it since about 1980 but I hear it's a mess these days.

I thinks "the mess years" are past and DORAL is back to being the premier south Florida championship course open to the public.  It has been a favourite of mine since the late 60s and all of the changes were really annoying.  I have managed to play it quite often over the years and it's good again!   Even when it was great in the late 60s only the backs of the tees were level, they used to topdress down the centre of every tee.

Has the 16th hole become one of the best short par fours on the tour?  I'm sure Dick Wilson didn't know that he had created such a good hole!

[JC Jones]

JC,

The heavy topdressing was not applied evenly. Green surface lows became shallower (filled in) and the highs were reduced (tractor dragged topdressing off the highs). Over time the perimeter of the green shapes was also changed depending on how the tractor turned on and off the green (dragging the topdressing on and off the edges). This is evident if you look at old aerials of the original greens. Later, when bunkers were remodeled they matched revised green shapes, not original green shapes, which have compounded the changes over time.

Tim,

From where are you getting this information?  Have you looked at a series of aerials for Seminole?

I'm not questioning whether your right, these are honest questions.

[JC Jones]

I didn't mean to be mysterious in my post just above, referencing Tom Doak and Pete Dye.  I have no personal knowledge; here is Tom in The Confidential Guide (p. 145):

"My friends Ron Whitten and Pete Dye both swear that most of present-day Seminole is the work of Dick Wilson, who secretly rebuilt much of the course after World War II..." 

(Mind you, it is only a single sentence from his review entry on Seminole.  There's more to it, and if this was our favorite author-architect being a bit chatty, well, that was part of the genius of the book anyway.)

According to the person working for Dick Wilson at the time and the one charge with implementing the changes, Mr Dye and Mr Whitten would be incorrect.

[TEPaul]

"As many know, Tom Doak has alluded to statements made by Pete Dye that Wilson did extensive work at Seminole.  Has anyone ever sat with Pete to record his views on that subject in any detail?  Does Pete's membership at Seminole make it sort of off limits for him to comment publicly,"


I have, a couple of times. Once in person and once on the phone about Seminole. I didn't tape record it though.  

I don't think there's anything I know of that Pete feels specifically constrainted against commenting on. Pete can be pretty good at the one-word answer sometimes but if you get him going on something he's pretty vociferous. The first time I heard him launch into the greens at Seminole was at Pine Valley. A bunch of us were standing together and Pete asked one guy where he played. The guy said Seminole and Pete said; "Me too----those are the worst greens in the world."

OK, nothing like a real conversation starter, huh?   And that wasn't the only one. Earlier we were talking about all the trees in the bunkers along the left of #12 at PV with the president. I said you used to be able to see the green from the tee and Pete stepped in and said: "Just get a bunch of guys and a bunch of chainsaws and go out there tonight."

Well, I do remember a time when Pete apparently felt he shouldn't speak up. It was at a fancy dinner party at my parents house in Delray. My stepmother used to produce some seriously fancy food and the first course was this salmon in a rabbit mold that was sprinkled with capers. I happened to look across the table at Pete and he had his beer can in one hand and he was examining those capers very carefully. He looked up and I caught his eye, and he just silently mouthed across the table; "What are these?" and he glanced at the capers. I mouthed back that they were capers and he mouthed back, "They look sort of like rabbit shit."


As far as Wilson doing extensive work at Seminole, that might be sort of misleading. I doubt he did that much extensive architectural work but as has been shown on here after the war he apparently did some extensive agronomic work on the course to get it back in shape after the deplorable condition it had gotten in during the war years.

Pete also mentioned to me he felt Wilson moved the 3rd green back some but looking at Ross's plans I just don't see that.

[Gary Slatter]

Mr. Dye’s basic premise is the greens at Seminole have been top dressed so heavy and so often over the years their surface are not the original design any longer. The main person responsible for this top dressing (sometimes very heavy on Bermuda) over the early years was a maintenance tractor operator named Amos Jones. Mr. Dye feels he is more responsible for the design of the greens today than Donald Ross.

As a side note, when Mr. Dye is not happy with my work and we are with a client he will kid me and call me ‘Amos Jones”.  I immediately know he is not happy with whatever feature we are discussing, while the client is unaware of his dissatisfaction.

I don't understand this.  If the top dressing is applied evenly across the green then the contours would not change.  If point A is 10 inches above point B and 1 inch of topdressing is added to both point A and point B the point A is still 10 inches above point B.

I have found on bermuda that topdressing will fill in the subtle contours and the greens should be recontoured every 8 to 10 years.  Ir's pretty difficult to apply the sand evenly if you have to brush it "in" and keep the course open.  It can be applied evenly if the course is closed.

[JC Jones]

Mr. Dye’s basic premise is the greens at Seminole have been top dressed so heavy and so often over the years their surface are not the original design any longer. The main person responsible for this top dressing (sometimes very heavy on Bermuda) over the early years was a maintenance tractor operator named Amos Jones. Mr. Dye feels he is more responsible for the design of the greens today than Donald Ross.

As a side note, when Mr. Dye is not happy with my work and we are with a client he will kid me and call me ‘Amos Jones”.  I immediately know he is not happy with whatever feature we are discussing, while the client is unaware of his dissatisfaction.

I don't understand this.  If the top dressing is applied evenly across the green then the contours would not change.  If point A is 10 inches above point B and 1 inch of topdressing is added to both point A and point B the point A is still 10 inches above point B.

I have found on bermuda that topdressing will fill in the subtle contours and the greens should be recontoured every 8 to 10 years.  Ir's pretty difficult to apply the sand evenly if you have to brush it "in" and keep the course open.  It can be applied evenly if the course is closed.

Interesting.  A couple questions come out of this:

1)  When do courses typically top dress (Seminole is closed 6 months of the year)?
2)  If contours are lost, would those who felt the course should remain unchanged notice? And if so, would they want the greens re-shaped to what they were?

[JC Jones]

Pete also mentioned to me he felt Wilson moved the 3rd green back some but looking at Ross's plans I just don't see that.

As I understand it, other than 18, none of the targets were changed.

[TEPaul]

"I have found on bermuda that topdressing will fill in the subtle contours and the greens should be recontoured every 8 to 10 years.  Ir's pretty difficult to apply the sand evenly if you have to brush it "in" and keep the course open.  It can be applied evenly if the course is closed."


Gary:

That's the thing about some of those Florida courses including Seminole. They have seasonal memberships and they close them down from about the end of May until about October so that's always given them the opportunity to do some pretty heavy maintenance work on them during those 4-5 down months. If you ask Pete who really changed those greens he'll tell you just what Tim Liddy and Mike Young did----it was a contractor from Georgia by the name of Amos Jones who apparently did it one summer.

JC:
As I've always understood it, I don't think anything has been significantly changed at Seminole architecturally other than the 18th hole which has always been well known. That and apparently expanding the range tees but a long time ago---probably at the same time they moved the 18th green because that just freed up a lot of space to use around where the 18th green once was.

[JC Jones]

Tom, based on what I understand of Chris Dunphy, that type of work would not have happened on his watch so this must have been done (if at all) sometime after his tenure.

[TEPaul]

"Tom, based on what I understand of Chris Dunphy, that type of work would not have happened on his watch so this must have been done (if at all) sometime after his tenure."


JC:

I'm pretty positive that basically nothing at all was done to that course architecturally after Dunphy. As I mentioned on here I do remember Dunphy but I have no idea when he died or how long he oversaw Seminole the way he did. Do you have any idea about that?

Whenever it was I can pretty much guarantee you that course like so many others in America with memberships like it just sort of went into what I call their "sleepy mode."

It was not until the late 1980s that the course was improved again with the Silva project and the onset of their tournament known as The Coleman Invitational which was pretty much a complete borrowing of the Crump Cup list in the beginning.

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