Crystal Downs #17

[jonathan_becker]

There have been a few threads recently about drivable par 4s and I think that someone had brought up #17 at Crystal Downs on a thread, but no one had addressed it.

I've never played the hole, but Google Maps says it's roughly 285 yds or so to the front edge of the green.  With the tee being elevated 25 feet or so higher than the green, unless this hole always plays into the wind, why isn't it brought up more often as being drivable?

285 to the front, downwind, and down 25 feet seems attainable by more than just a small few.  I know not everyone can hit a ball that far, but all things considered, it's not that far.  

There are tons of you guys that have played this hole, so please fill me in if I'm missing something here.  According to the scorecard, it's 301 from the mens tee to the middle and 311 from the back tee.  

I realize that missing the green could result in a tough recovery and I'm interested in hearing some of your analysis and experiences with this hole.

Thanks,

Jonathan

I grabbed this photo from golfblog100.com

[Jon Heise]

I dont know why.  There's really no ideal place to put it off the tee, 7 iron, 3 iron, driver.  The 2nd shot will be wild, if you're lucky to have a clean one anyway.  Saying that, you might as well go for it if you've got the length to get there.  As good an option as any.  It's definitely drivable, my buddy got green-high in the right fringe.  Dont ask where my drive went...

[Bart Bradley]

The day I played it was at least a 25 mph headwind and there was zero chance anyone was going to drive the green...I suspect that the hole generally plays into the wind, but I don't know.

Bart

[Padraig Dooley]

I tried to drive it each time I played it, there wasn't much wind, if any. First couple of times I hit really good tee shots and came up 20 yards short, the last time I hit it into the junk on the left, made 4 each time. It definitely is driveable, just not easy to do it.

It's not really the prudent play to try and drive it, but it sure is fun.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Jonathan,

My feeling is that finding that smallish, sloped green or a nearby safety outlet that would leave you in a reasonable position to make birdie or par would be much more luck than skill.  The more firm and fast the conditions or variable the wind is, then lower the probability.

Others who've played it more than I could comment on pin placement influence on the tee shot, but based on my experience, you've got be very precise with your approach if the pin is on the front part of that green--if you can precisely place your drive right in front of the green, OK, but how many can reliably execute a 280-yd shot to what I recall is a very small patch of safe terrain?  

I think it's far less risky to put something in play off the tee, from 5-wood to 4-iron, and then deal with the tricky approach.

In match play, if you were downwind, down 1 or 2 in your match, and had been hitting the driver well all day, maybe take a driver and go all out for a win--otherwise safety first.  If you're going for a score, I don't think driver makes sense at all...

[Mark Chaplin]

Eric - isn't that what makes a great short par 4.....it doesn't make sense to take driver but the hole tempts you to do so none the less.

10 at the Belfry is a good example of a short par 4 that is only worth challenging in fourball matchplay. 6 iron + wedge isn't how a hole should be  but there is TOO much risk for the reward in going for the green.

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Eric,

I agree that going for it isn't the smartest play.  But when I saw the photos on golfarchitecturepictures.com, it looks like a tricky lay up as well off the tee.  Either way, like earlier posts have stated, the hole looks awesome and just that fact that going for it could be an considered option makes it seem really fun.

[Steven_Biehl]

A thought I had:  One reason it is not driven very often is that distance will need to be carried also.  There is a strong back to front slope on the 17th green and the approach drops off to the front left.  On flat ground it would be easier to get a shot to run up on the green, whereas on the 17th at Crystal Downs, if you come up short the slope will absorb the shot and cause it to roll backwards.  I have never played with someone who has driven the green.  Not many try.

[Padraig Dooley]

Steven is right, the slope at the front is quite substantial and it does mean the ball nearly has to be carried all the way to the surface.

The pitch from just short of the green isn't the easiest either, far from a gimme up and down, which probably dissuades people from trying to drive it as well.

[Jeff Martz]

I was lucky enough to play CD at last year's MacKenzie Cup.  As I first walked up to the tee, all I could say was, "Wow!"  There was NO WIND all three days.  From what I was told, that was extremely rare.  There used to be a tree on the right side prior to 199? something.  Our group all agreed.  We did not come here to lay up.  It has to be a pretty good poke to get it there and even then, the putting is not easy once you do.  The bunker in the left front of the green appears much deeper while your in it than it does on the previous picture.  I couldn't see the flagstick at all from down there.

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

As Jeff mentions, there used to be a fairly large cherry tree growing on the shoulder of ground to the right of the fairway; the crown of the tree actually blocked the view of the green from the tee, and if you were behind it, you were dead.  So anyone who learned to play the course 20+ years ago [as I did] was highly unlikely to think about trying to drive the green.

Since the tree came down, I've seen many guests pull out a driver, but only one of them put it safely just in front of the green and made birdie.  That was Ian Baker-Finch.  There have been a lot more doubles than pars.  Even if you don't spray your tee shot, the green is pretty skinny, and the bunkers to both sides are extremely penal ... if it's windy, just getting your ball to stay on the green from those bunkers is a good shot.

[Jim Sweeney]

It is the removal of that cherry tree, the result being the driver option, that took a good hole and made it very good. Yes, driving the green is very difficult for all the reasons mentioned. But success at  doing so would be a huge advanatge, also for the reasons mentioned. Isn't that what makes a dirveable hole interesting? Isn't that excactly why Riviera 10 is highly regarded?

[john_stiles]

Trying to drive the  17th at Crystal Downs would be quite a gamble in medal play, worth the effort in a 4 ball if partner is safe.

Long, right or left of greenside bunker probably means you need a provisional in medal play.  It is pretty easy to lose a ball especially when it disappears into the high grasses.

Missing the  10th at Riviera  means a difficult short shot and usually a poor opportunity for birdie.

Both are great short par 4s,  Crystal Downs is a much bigger gamble than 10th at Riviera in my view.


Tom,

Did the cherry tree just block the view of the green, or could it really stop a  ' modern high launched ' drive of today ?
Was is   " tall enough & close enough "  to stop a  " modern drive " ?

Was cherry tree cut before the year  2000 ?

[Jeff Martz]

Here is some info. on the Pin Cherry.

[jonathan_becker]

Jeff,

Thanks a lot for posting that photo.  I was wondering about how the hole looked with the tree.

In regards to going for the green, the tree doesn't look like it came into play.  If anything, it makes the lay up off the tee that much tougher.

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

Clearing the tree was not an issue if you really had the length to try and drive the green; however the shot was blind and the tree added much uncertainty to the already strong possibility of losing your ball if you hit driver.

Of course, in the 1980's, you actually had a wooden club in your hand, and not many guys could legitimately think about driving it 300 yards back then.  For most, a driver was not going to clear the tree that easily.

[George Freeman]

Here are some bigger pics (I'll comment on the hole later as I don't have time at the moment):

There is more room left than this first pic shows






What a GREAT hole.

[Brian_Sleeman]

The wind has been touched on briefly here (particularly Tom's comment about the wind blowing balls off the green, which I've been the victim of a few times), but I think it needs more of a mention.  The 17th typically plays dead into the teeth of the wind, and on those days there is no chance.  It is not uncommon to get winds of 30 mph or more at the Downs, and on the 17th it seems to strengthen to even higher levels as it tunnels through the trees after sweeping unobstructed through the front nine.  There are many stories about the wind on the 17th.  I can tell you that on several occasions I've nutted 7 iron from less than 100 yards and barely gotten it to the green (a 7 iron is about 165 for me).

I have hit driver here on calm days and gotten it into some precarious spots around the green, but having been beaten over the head enough and watching many a tee shot get swept away by the jet stream into either treeline, I now almost always hit a 3 or 4 iron.  I've probably played the hole 200 times and never seen anyone knock it on.  It does happen once or twice every summer though when there is no wind.

[jonathan_becker]

Tom Doak,

Thanks for reminding me about the persimmon woods....I keep forgetting about those things. 

#17 downwind in 1985 sounds like a huge challenge!!

Brian Sleeman,

By looking at the photos and the way you describe the wind, it seems that the last 100 yards of carry is where the ball is blown around the most.  Based on your post, I would then agree with John Stiles and only go for it in a desperate situation.