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Tom_Doak

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Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« on: March 06, 2010, 04:20:28 PM »
The thread about Bob Jones' 18 favorite holes prompts me to start this discussion.

Too often, I find that one or two celebrated holes on a golf course tend to draw all the discussion, while other outstanding holes on the same courses are completely overlooked.

An example:  we must all bow to the tenth at Riviera, and if there is room to get past that one, then most people must genuflect at the par-3 sixth, or perhaps the long par-3 4th, even though the great kicker into the green doesn't even work.  [At least it looks great on paper.]

As a result, no one ever talks about the par-4 9th or 15th, which I think are two of the great par-fours in golf.  I'd take either one of them over the 18th hole there, any day.

Does anyone else think other holes at Riviera are short-changed?  Let's give it half a day, and then someone can switch the subject to a different course which suffers the same problem.

Alex Miller

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 04:28:31 PM »
I think the 1st hole doesn't get it's due.

A very reachable par 5 with a dramatic tee shot next to the clubhouse. The green complex is superb and it offers anything from a 3 to a 6 or 7 to start the day. Although there is not much going on in the landing area, it's the appropriate shot to begin the round. Glad I snagged it in the fantasy draft we had.  :D

jonathan_becker

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2010, 04:38:24 PM »
What about #3?

I've never played Riviera, but throughout the years of watching the LA Open, that tee shot has always appealed to me.  Even though I normally hit a slight draw, that fw bunker on the left is just screaming to be used as an aiming point for peeling one to the right with the movement of the hole.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that green slope front to back?  That should make for an interesting approach if it's windy.

Alex Miller

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2010, 04:44:20 PM »
What about #3?

I've never played Riviera, but throughout the years of watching the LA Open, that tee shot has always appealed to me.  Even though I normally hit a slight draw, that fw bunker on the left is just screaming to be used as an aiming point for peeling one to the right with the movement of the hole.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that green slope front to back?  That should make for an interesting approach if it's windy.

When it's windy that hole is normally into the wind as the hole heads west, but a good hole it certainly is. I imagine when the Riv was built that bunker was really intimidating, too bad it's just an aiming point now.

jonathan_becker

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2010, 04:47:57 PM »
Thanks for the info, Alex.

If into a headwind is the norm, then sticking the approach shouldn't be nearly as tough as downwind.  Once again, I'm just assuming.

PCCraig

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 05:09:22 PM »
Building off my last post on Jones' list of great golf holes and into this thread...

While it's been off the tournament radar since 1999, TCC - Brookline has it's fair share of well known holes:

#3 par-4: Weaves through two rock outcroppings and down towards the skating pond
#11 par-5: A steep downhill tee shot which the player picks his taste of risk/reward between two large rock formations, with a perfect creek at ~150 yards out, and an approach back up to a greensite on a hill.
#13 par 4: According to Jones
#17 par 4: The short dogleg left which was home to historical putts by Francis and Justin L (even though actually on different greens). As well as a blow up by Curtis Strange in the '88 Open off the back edge of the green and Vardon in the doglegg bunker.
#18 par-4 with it's looming front bunker and dark yellow clubhouse behind.


But of those I think the most underrated is the 4th, which after Flynn redesigned the hole it was called "Hospital" because at one point there was a mental hospital behind the greensite  :P It's a great short par 4, with tons of options and a tiny green surrounded by deep bunkers that's blind from the tee. Off the tee a player can either:

  • Be conservative and hit an iron in the fariway short of the bunkers, but have a very hard blind shot towads the green (good luck hitting it from there!)
  • Hit a Hybrid/3-wood roughly 220 yards to a platau next to the bunkers on the doglegg left, and leave yourself with a 100 yard wedge shot downhill to the small green which also has a 10-ft flagstick that makes the hole feel even smaller :)
  • Or cut the dogleg with a driver right at the green and test your luck with one of the bunkers by the green or a pitch from the surrounding rough.


What a great hole!

Don't even get me started on #5, #6, and #7 which is one underrated stretch  :o
H.P.S.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2010, 05:10:30 PM »
I'm a fan of both the 3rd and the 5th at Riviera.

I think the 2nd at the Old Course is a good hole that gets almost no mention.

I like the 8th and the 12th at Cypress Point.

The 2nd, 3rd and 14th at Pac Dunes don't get much ink, but IMO are very good holes

Anthony Gray

Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2010, 07:14:41 PM »


  The 3rd at Pebble Beach. The left side of the fairway is prefered. Right rough is one of the hardest shots on the course. The hole stes up better for a player that can work the ball so it can determine the better golfer. And its scenic.

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 07:18:37 PM »


  The 12th at The Old Course. Options..options..options. One of the few holes in golf were the best miss is long. The hole has drama. Drama of driving the green. Drama of seeing a ball short of the green disapear and not nowing if it is safe or not. And it is a hole were you can make a very low number or a double.

  Anthony


Matt_Ward

Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2010, 07:28:03 PM »
Tom D:

While I certainly can salute the qualities of the 9th and 15th at Riv -- the 18th is no slouch by any stretch of imagination and if you see the two you name as miles beyond the closer then you're really streching things a bit.

Just realize this -- a hole(s) can be underrated and deserve more attention -- that doesn't mean to also say it's better than the acknowledged heavyweight holes that area already there. #18 at Riv is just a tour de force closer -- so clear in its demands and so utterly unforgiveable unless the shotmaking execution if present.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 07:32:25 PM »
The 7th at Royal Troon is simply awesome and is very much overlooked by its world famous successor The Postage Stamp....

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 08:57:09 PM »


Tom,

I really liked 5 and 9 at Riviera. I feel the staggered bunkering on the flattish ninth was great.  The 5th fairway reminded me of Westchester County terrain a little bit. I also liked the small spine that gently intervenes on the right. I also suggest the downhill nature of the approach shot adds some intirgue to the front nine

Further afield:  
Royal Dornoch #15-   short par four with charming green complex
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 10:01:34 PM by mark chalfant »

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 09:19:13 PM »
#5 Sand Hills
#2 Oak Hill East
#3 LACC North
#7 Plainfield
#13 Shinnecock

Anthony Gray

Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 09:28:39 PM »
The 7th at Royal Troon is simply awesome and is very much overlooked by its world famous successor The Postage Stamp....

  Agree strongly. The best short 4 on the course. Clever bunkering and nice slope to the green.

  Anthony


ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 09:33:42 PM »
#12 at Merion; much harder than #15 IMO.

Here's one: Are there any "underrated" holes at Pine Valley?  #16, maybe??

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 09:52:56 PM »
#5 Sand Hills
#2 Oak Hill East
#3 LACC North
#7 Plainfield
#13 Shinnecock

Ed,

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on #2 at Oak Hill.  While not one of my favorites on the course, I still think it is a very neat hole.  What gives the hole such great merit for you?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 09:58:53 PM »
Building off my last post on Jones' list of great golf holes and into this thread...

While it's been off the tournament radar since 1999, TCC - Brookline has it's fair share of well known holes:

#3 par-4: Weaves through two rock outcroppings and down towards the skating pond
#11 par-5: A steep downhill tee shot which the player picks his taste of risk/reward between two large rock formations, with a perfect creek at ~150 yards out, and an approach back up to a greensite on a hill.
#13 par 4: According to Jones
#17 par 4: The short dogleg left which was home to historical putts by Francis and Justin L (even though actually on different greens). As well as a blow up by Curtis Strange in the '88 Open off the back edge of the green and Vardon in the doglegg bunker.
#18 par-4 with it's looming front bunker and dark yellow clubhouse behind.


But of those I think the most underrated is the 4th, which after Flynn redesigned the hole it was called "Hospital" because at one point there was a mental hospital behind the greensite  :P It's a great short par 4, with tons of options and a tiny green surrounded by deep bunkers that's blind from the tee. Off the tee a player can either:

  • Be conservative and hit an iron in the fariway short of the bunkers, but have a very hard blind shot towads the green (good luck hitting it from there!)
  • Hit a Hybrid/3-wood roughly 220 yards to a platau next to the bunkers on the doglegg left, and leave yourself with a 100 yard wedge shot downhill to the small green which also has a 10-ft flagstick that makes the hole feel even smaller :)
  • Or cut the dogleg with a driver right at the green and test your luck with one of the bunkers by the green or a pitch from the surrounding rough.


What a great hole!

Don't even get me started on #5, #6, and #7 which is one underrated stretch  :o

While I love the 4th at Brookline, I am not sure I would call it underrated.  Golf Magazine picked it as one of the 500 Greatest Holes in the World.  I think the hole gets plenty of recognition.  That being said it was one of my very favorite holes on the course.  The green is seriously small, yet the hole is still very strategic due to the wild terrain in the fairway.

The most underrated hole at Brookline is number 5.  Before playing the course, I had heard literally nothing about this hole.  When I stepped on the tee, I could not believe the hole was that cool.  What a tee shot!  It has to be one of the most unique holes in golf.  It is also a very strategic hole with one of the most severest greens on the course.  It might not be as epic as 3 or 11, but it is very solid nonetheless.

10 is also very underrated, although that is easier to explain because it is not part of the Composite Course.

The Country Club is a great golf course.  I would love to see it discussed more on this site.

5 and 7 Merion are the two most underrated holes on great courses that I know of.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2010, 01:00:24 AM »
The 7th at Royal Troon is simply awesome and is very much overlooked by its world famous successor The Postage Stamp....

  Agree strongly. The best short 4 on the course. Clever bunkering and nice slope to the green.

  Anthony



The entire hole is strong....

Mike Cirba

Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2010, 01:05:36 AM »
Actually, the first hole I thought of was number 14 at Merion, which can just play super-long at only about 420 yards.

The uphill lie on the second, combined with only seeing the flagstick, combined with what is usually a prevailing wind, just seems tailor made for either the pull-hook over the road OB, or sensing that outcome, the huge block to the right.   A very, very difficult hole to get comfortable on for either shot.

Alister Matheson

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2010, 03:53:57 AM »
3rd at Brora is a superb  par 4 . 11th at Royal Dornoch does not get mentioned much but is outstanding !
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Michael Robin

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2010, 04:13:11 AM »
Some more thoughts on Riviera's Underrated Holes -

So much of the Riviera's great details lie dormant as the equipment boom and some changes in the course have us just walking past the brushstrokes of genius by Thomas.

Examples:

#3 - The fairway bunker that has been referenced is a good demonstration of something he did in several places on the course, which is to add a distance kicker for successfully challenging a bunker or bump that would have a downhill grade on its backside. It would give you extra runout on your tee shot. If you avoided taking on the bunker or bump, you would end up with a longer shot and a less favorable angle. Currently, while you still want to be left, the tee shot just spits on the kicker as it flies over it. In High School in 1980, it was a bitch to fly that bunker into the afternoon's 2 club wind, but if you did, you got to hit a long iron into the green with the gap between the greenside bunkers set up well for your use. If you went right, you were left with a wood into the green with a forced carry over the right side giant bunker. Thomas applied the same strategic approach to the tee shot on #2, except he placed a big hump on the left side of the fairway instead of a bunker. Same strategy, but a different land form that felt like variety.

#5 - This is a very Underrated Hole that is also dormant. Back to 1980 - you used to walk just off the 4th green and go straight down the very steep, pushed up back side to the Blue tee on 5, which was the #1 handicap hole playing about 440 yds. It also was about 5 yards below its current grade. This gave you a shot of about 230 yards to the top of the hill on the drive into a 2 club wind. The hill acted as a governor to limit distance on the tee shot, which would leave you a shot of about 210 yards, downhill into the wind to the large, right to left sloping green. There is a small Alps-like hill that guards a bank that used to be cut at fairway length and would throw a ball hit with a 4 wood onto the green if you successfully challenged the little Alps.

All those elements are still in place, but in 1981, Ted Robinson was hired by the then owners, The LA Athletic Club, to reduce the steep descent to the 5th tee, because of potential liability if someone fell down that hill as had happened in another instance walking down to the 1st fairway. Robinson built this huge gradual, elevated tee complex that moved the tees up about 25 yards. That beast of a tee complex stood for several years before being torn down, and then changed one more time in an effort to get it back to its original spot, but it is still about 20 yards in front of the original position. Add to that the equipment factor and what once was a Driver, 4 Wood hole is now Driver, 8 iron, because everybody just flies over the governor off of the tee and nobody has a reason to challenge the Alps to take advantage of that bank shot, as an 8 iron wouldn't trigger the release like a 4 wood or long iron would anyway. Don't know if these ideas could be recaptured by pushing the tee back to its original spot, which would require regrading the back of 4, but there is a very Underrated Hole laying there waiting to be found again.

I agree with Tom about 9 and 15. Still get a big rush as I walk onto the tee at 9 and look at the symmetry of how the hole lays out and its relationship to the grand Clubhouse. The green on 15 is my favorite on the course. A Biarritz spun and set on a diagonal, and placed on a par 4.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 04:30:04 AM by Michael Robin »

David_Elvins

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2010, 04:39:36 AM »
I could be wrong but my impression is that the first four holes at Garden City are quite underated (2 and 4 especially), and talked about with less regard than holes such as 9, 10, 15, 16 and 18.  

IMO, close to the best opening 4 holes I have played.  

« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 04:41:10 AM by David_Elvins »
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Jud_T

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2010, 06:48:56 AM »
The first hole that came to mind was #6 at Ballybunion Old, a great short par 4 overshadowed by the big holes that follow it...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 07:15:42 AM by Jud Tigerman »
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Mac Plumart

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2010, 08:17:05 AM »
17 at Kiawah Ocean gets a lot of publicity due to Ryder Cup antics, but I think 2 is the best hole on that course.

18 at Inverness get a lot of publlicity because of major championship happenings, but 7 and 4 are great as well.

18 at Harbour Town is what is "known" but 8 and 13 are pretty solid.

17 at TPC Sawgrass is talked about a lot, but 11 is damn good!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Most Underrated Holes on Good Courses
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2010, 09:21:26 AM »
#5 Sand Hills
#2 Oak Hill East
#3 LACC North
#7 Plainfield
#13 Shinnecock

Agree on #5 Sand Hills. I thought it quite the deal from the back tees where the hole is completely different than the other tee. The variable blindness of the 2nd shot depending how left one hits it off the tee is sublime.

Disagree on #3 LACC. Most locals go absolutely nuts over that hole....in a good way. Also, in the "Pre-Gil" era, it might have been the only truly interesting look in the first 6 holes, other than the 2nd shot into #1. Fortunately, they're well into phase 2 of the project, wait until you see the new version!
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