[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Golf Digest's Travel Editor Matt Ginella was here last weekend for our annual "Friendship Cup."  Seems he didn't like The Ocean Course:
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2010/03/kiawahs-ocean-course-causes-ro.html

Thoughts?  Opinions?

[Eric Smith]

Meow.

A lot of what he wrote is probably true to a certain extent (sans criticism of holes 2 and 3 as 2 is the most memorable to me), but sitting here at my desk, I'd LOVE to be there to charge the line and take my chances with that 30 mph wind and that slab of a green.  It's golf, not badminton!

I'll tell you the best thing about that article is the March deal.  On the phone to see about a booking.

**Edit - I called and the deal mentioned in the article requires 2 nights and 2 rounds.  For a 1 night/ 1 round deal you're looking at $487 + tax (double occ.)

[Joel Zuckerman]

IMO, What Matt G isn't understanding is that his standard 8 handicap is more like a 12 at TOC...perhaps a 15 in inclement, February weather, and he needs to adjust his attitude and game concurrently.

Jack Nicklaus recently said that the best way for a handicap golfer to post reasonable scores is to plan on making bogey on his handicap holes....a 12 should plod conservatively around the toughest dozen holes, keeping trouble at bay as best he can, thus avoiding blow-up holes, and hope a deft putt or chip will yield an unexpected par.

 I can think of no smarter way to play TOC, though it's tough to implement such a strategy, when it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for many, and the cost of the round is often prohibitive.  It's not surprising that visitors throw caution (and their golf balls) to the wind, and go for broke...but that's why there are probably ten times more scores there over 100 than under 80!

[Carl Nichols]

IIRC, Pat Ruddy has some statements to the effect that he designed the European Club along the lines described by Jack N.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike V:  How do you set up The Ocean Course day to day?

I remember when I first played it (seven months before it opened), there was no scorecard, just yardages written on little flags next to the sprinkler heads on the tees.  I played with a friend who was much better than me, one tee up from the back ... it was only when we got to the end and added up the numbers that we realized we had played it at 7300 yards and the tips must be about 7700.

I asked Mr. Dye about that and he said he'd built a lot of extra tees and that it was not intended for even the pros to play every hole all the way back on any given day.  But I suspect you don't move the tee markers around as much as he intended ... Mr. Ginella [and most other visitors] probably wound up playing the course from too far back.

[Sean_A]

Most championship seas-side courses are not gonna shine in 30mph.  That said, if the prevailing wind works up or down the links, there is enough room to play at Kiawah.  A prevailing cross-wind may be a totally different story.  I suspect this chap played form too far back.  If we all just take it for granted that Kiawah is a championship course, swallow our pride and move up a set or two, Kiawah becomes manageable.  Still, not to like #s 2 or 3 is wild.  They are very good holes and I don't understand the comment about hitting the 2nd in 4.  If the wind was as the author stated, that green should have been well within reach in two shots so a third could easily have been a lateral pitch from the left onto the green.  I will admit that I wasn't totally taken by Kiawah mainly because of some of the par 4s and the stupidly high green fee, but there is no question Kiawah is an excellent course.  

Ciao

[John Moore II]

Maybe he's correct, I don't know. However, I do recall The Ocean Course as having the highest course rating in the nation and a really high slope as well. You know coming in its a pure beast of a course. With high winds and cold temps, it gets harder. So what you shot a high score, that doesn't determine how good a golf course is. I've never played there and until the rounds cost less than $340 or whatever he said, I likely never will. So, let him whine and complain I say. You know coming in that golf course is insanely hard, get over the fact you shot a high score.

[cary lichtenstein]

My one play, loved it.

[Doug Wright]

Mike,

This is a dumb article driven too much by his results for one round on the golf course. Who cares about his crappy round? His comments about 2-3 are laughable. They are both excellent, well designed holes.  

I've onlly played The Ocean Course once, in a moderate wind in the summer. I found the course surprisingly playable, not the beast I anticipated. Yes it's challenging and there are some very difficult holes especially into the wind, but there is room to play the course even with a decent wind (except for 17, on which there is no room for error). I don't know if the course has been softened signficantly since the War on the Shore.  

The only thing I agree with is The Ocean Course is too expensive--I passed on a second playing last summer for that reason.  

[PCCraig]

With all due respect to "Matty G" at GD, he's a travel writer first and has very limited GCA knowledge. He came out with his list of the top 25 public courses in the country last month and let's just say the North Carolina list recently posted on GCA made more sense.

In his review he sounds more like a guy who had a bad day on the course than someone who was out there to study the architecture.

I don't know any course in the country that is easier in cold and 30-mph wind, esp. TOC.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Mike V:  How do you set up The Ocean Course day to day?

I remember when I first played it (seven months before it opened), there was no scorecard, just yardages written on little flags next to the sprinkler heads on the tees.  I played with a friend who was much better than me, one tee up from the back ... it was only when we got to the end and added up the numbers that we realized we had played it at 7300 yards and the tips must be about 7700.

I asked Mr. Dye about that and he said he'd built a lot of extra tees and that it was not intended for even the pros to play every hole all the way back on any given day.  But I suspect you don't move the tee markers around as much as he intended ... Mr. Ginella [and most other visitors] probably wound up playing the course from too far back.

Tom--

You played it at what is now the "Tournament Tees" which we set at 7,356 (144/77.5).  We don't even put tee markers at the back tees which are 7,873 (153/79.7).  The Friendship Cup was played from the tees set at 6,475 (134/72.0)

As for the cost, walk-ups in peak season (March, April, May, Sept, Oct, Nov) are $338.  Off season drops to $246.  If you stay at the resort (not on a golf package), its $307 and $222.  If you're on a golf package, it's less then that...

[Tom_Doak]

The course rating from all the way back is 80.0?  Jesus.

[Greg Tallman]

Pobrecita...

Little Matty sounds like a whiny tour pro who faced a real golf course after a steady diet of bland tour courses set up to promote birdie fests.

Who the hell said golf should be easy?

I Diamante a coule weeks ago in 25-30 MPH winds and score was irrelevant, hitting 5 irons from 120, contrary to Matt's opinion, is fun. Breaking 80 that day wouold have beeb an accompishment and we were playing from Tee II on the front and Tee III on the back.

My experience at Kiawah was that the staff strongly suggested playing from a yardage that is shorter than one is accustomed to playing. With a group of a dozen professionals and another dozen 5 or better ams we ignored the starter and teed it from the back markers (with plenty of room behind that). in the lead group and standing on hole #4 I announced that I did not care what the rest of the group chose but i was moving up to the 6900 markers. Everyone gladly followed my lead. This was 1995 or so and the distance played much longer than today.

The Ocean Course at Kiawah is a wonderful course and one of my favorites. Matt Ginella is merely one guy with an opinion and perhaps a poor sense of what defines a good or great golf course.

The gentleman who held his same post at Golf Magazine in the past is a true professional and would find a better way to frame a course he was less than enamored with. Matt might try to pick up a few Golf Magazine's from the 1990-2003... he might learn a bit.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
C'mon, go for last Slope point. 

We don't even put tee markers at the back tees which are 7,873 (154/80.0).

[JNC Lyon]

A couple of problems here:

1) The 2nd through 4th holes are all phenomenal.  He says the 3rd green is too hard to hit?  Did he try bouncing it into the green?  Also, he labels 4 as a 400 yard par four.  I think this hole tips out at 450 or 460.  From that distance, hitting driver should be no problem.  It's too bad he thinks the the 4th is a bad hole because the green is difficult to hit.

2) My guess is that Ginella thinks golf is a game to be played in the air.  He is upset because his balloon wedge shots do not find the greens.  3 is the main issue here for me.  Although I do not like the trees mid-fairway, I think the green is truly great.  There is nothing to stop a player from bouncing his second shot into the green.  In 30 MPH winds, the ground game becomes the game of choice.  Although there are a few forced carries at the OC, nearly every green is receptive to a bouncing approach from the correct angle.  Ginella would probably hate Sandwich too.

Just because he shot 84 here does not make it a bad golf course.  The Ocean Course is still great despite what some idiot says in his review.

[Greg Tallman]

The course rating from all the way back is 80.0?  Jesus.

Seems a bit low to be honest.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

The course rating from all the way back is 80.0?  Jesus.

Oops. I just corrected it.  It's 79.7, not 80 and 153 not 154.  My mistake...  We just had it redone.  It was 79.6 and 155.  I guess we're getting easier the pros and harder for the bogie golfer with age...

[Wade Whitehead]

I'll put the article in my "I hit a five wood into the water from 150 yards so I don't like the golf course" file.

WW

[Carl Nichols]

Just because he shot 84 here does not make it a bad golf course.  The Ocean Course is still great despite what some idiot says in his review.

I agree with your second sentence I've quoted, but the first sentence is off -- the 84 was a net better-ball score for his partner and him . . . .

[Mark Smolens]

On the last day of my trip to Scotland back in '92 we played Southerness.  We were not supposed to go off until 10 because the members had an event scheduled for that morning, but when we arrived at 9 am, there were only a couple of cars in the lot.  One of our group stayed back at the B&B drinking tea, but my pro buddy and I were ready to go.  Winds no less than 30, gusts to 60, sideways rain that hurt when you tried to go into the wind.  The pro's goal was to break 80 -- he failed.  I was trying to break 90 -- I failed.  We were the only two guys on the course.  When we walked into the pro shop, the four guys laughed at us, saying "you're not really going to go out there are you?"  Leading of course to one of the best lines ever, "we didn't fly all the way over here to lay up."

Far and away one of the best days on the golf course I've ever experienced.  The cups were full of water, but the greens and fairways were rock hard.  If you didn't bounce the ball onto a green, you were over.  Completely soaked through the raingear, glasses were useless, but what a fun day.  Now, if it had been 40 degrees, I may have had a different reaction.  But it sounds like I don't want to go on a golf trip with Mr. Ginella any time soon.

[Anthony_Nysse]

There is quote in the article that states that TOC is the most famouse Pete Dye designed course and I'd have to say it's not even close. TPC takes the cake and I think that is just ahead of Harbour Town. Whistling Straits and PGA West are a solid 3 and 4.
  I wasn't blown away with TOC-it was okay, but I would even take Harbour Town over it.

[JNC Lyon]

Carl,

Sorry about the misquote.  That still does not make it a bad or overly difficult golf course.  I've seen such scores on much easier golf courses.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl,

Sorry about the misquote.  That still does not make it a bad or overly difficult golf course.  I've seen such scores on much easier golf courses.

I agree 100%!  But 84 is still a pretty high net better-ball score for two 8's. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The second hole is a par 5 that goes out, left and then right--going for it in 2, even with the longest of drives, is a round-wrecking proposition. Fact is, you have to have the accuracy of a tour player to hit the green in 4.


then dont go for it in two...it is a par five and you dont have to be a hero

The third hole, par 4, with an elevated slab of short grass commonly referred to as a green, is like trying to land a ball on the top of a backyard trampoline. Your approach shot plays downwind and unless you have brand new square grooves on your gap wedge, your ball is rolling into a penal collection area. If it was later in round, playing into the wind, I might say I like it.



the hole is barely over 300 yards, what do you expect a large flat green

The fourth hole frustrates me. A 400-yard par 4, listed as the hardest hole on the course, and due to a swampy thing running through the middle of the fairway, you can’t hit driver off the tee. I don’t know about you, but if I’m trying to slay the biggest dragon in the land, I’d like to at least be wielding my biggest sword.


Sounds to me like this guy should be playing pitchand putt somewhere, but only without windmills as they may create too much of a challenge.
This guy write for a magazine...grow up dude this is golf, it is not supposed to be easy!

[jonathan_becker]

Anthony,

I know you aren't a fan of HT, but do you seriously think it's better than TOC?  I'm just curious.

I've played every course listed in your last post and IMO holes 2-5 at the TOC are the best holes of the bunch.

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