News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2010, 03:35:08 AM »


I actually got a PDF emailed to me. I am quite interested in owning a proper copy, but wanted to see what all the fuss was about first.

So you are criticizing a "stolen" copy... ;D

I call for a mistrial.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2010, 03:46:20 AM »
Are the less than positive comments that are directed towards Scott made simply because he is in possession of a pdf copy or is it because he had the impertinence :D to criticise TD's book?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2010, 04:08:41 AM »
"Stolen copy", stolen from whom? The book appears to have been out of print for a number of years so any "theft" isn't affecting the author as they are not making money from it. There maybe a "theft" from those making a profit on their originals but there are too many originals to be able to prove a loss. I'm no expert on copyright.

Any criticism of Scott as a professional is unacceptable, he is good man and a member of staff on a national newspaper so must be beyond reproach....
Cave Nil Vino

Mark_F

Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2010, 04:12:30 AM »
Mark,
It is frustrating to see mistakes.I went over it several times - and you never see them until you see the actual book and the mistakes jump out.

Mike,

Don't worry - I have an "In My Opinion" piece hopefully due here any day now, and we'll see how accurate I was.  I went over it several times, but I'm sure I looked at it too often to pick up everything. 

Mark_F

Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2010, 04:24:21 AM »
"Stolen copy", stolen from whom? The book appears to have been out of print for a number of years so any "theft" isn't affecting the author as they are not making money from it.

I am not sure that is correct.  You are generally only allowed to copy material for educational reasons, unless you have the written permission of the copyright owner.   

Scott would be better off having copies of Daley and Scaletti's Sandbelt, which he could claim as educational material. :)  The Confidential Guide is more of an elaborate travel brochure.

Perhaps Scott and whoever copied the book have permission to do so. 

Whomever. ;D

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2010, 04:31:03 AM »
Sean - the Deal Appreciation Soceity continues to grow, two more GCA'ers have joined in 2010 as well as a close friend of a GCA'er.

That makes according to my records 11 posters and several lurkers. They cannot all be wrong!
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2010, 04:37:22 AM »
"Stolen copy", stolen from whom? The book appears to have been out of print for a number of years so any "theft" isn't affecting the author as they are not making money from it.

I am not sure that is correct.  You are generally only allowed to copy material for educational reasons, unless you have the written permission of the copyright owner.  

Scott would be better off having copies of Daley and Scaletti's Sandbelt, which he could claim as educational material. :)  The Confidential Guide is more of an elaborate travel brochure.

Perhaps Scott and whoever copied the book have permission to do so.  

Whomever. ;D


I am thinking Fair Use for Scott (the invoice is in the post Scott).  He hasn't so far as we know published the material received.  He has used the pdf for critical purposes.  It is also difficult to argue that the author/owner of the copyright had the value of the book limited by Scott's actions.  Finally, because Scott didn't in any way publish the pdf as part of one of his own works, it is difficult to see how he any way tried to supercede the Guide especially as it was made quite clear that the main reason for the existence of the book (critical analysis of architecture) wasn't in anyway Scott's focus.  

Don't ask me how I know some of this stuff.  Getting wrapped up in patent infringements with Rover/BMW/Jaguar has been on ongoing battle - which I might add I haven't lost yet because I simply asked these companies to prove their ownership of the patents.  Anyone who knows anything about the breakup of Rover/BL will know that history is VERY messy.

Mark

Of course, none are wrong.  Deal is a fine course which the members of both the club and society should be proud of.  


Ciao
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 05:14:45 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2010, 05:05:20 AM »
I am not sure that is correct.  You are generally only allowed to copy material for educational reasons, unless you have the written permission of the copyright owner.   


I don't think Wiley would be too happy if you copied their latest university Physics text book. It's educational, but is it legal to copy?

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2010, 06:35:19 AM »
I actually got a PDF emailed to me.
Pedant for spelling, not such a pedant for copyright laws.  A bit surprising for someone working in journalism.  Or then again, maybe not. 

Yeah, low blow there.  I am pretty sure there are plenty of journalists on this site (I am an amateur journalist myself) who just might take issue with your statement.
I am not sure it is a low blow, I just thought that it was more likely that a journalist would be:
a) well versed in the laws of copyright; and
b) more likely to follow the law with regard to copyright.

plus it is always fun to stir Scott a bit (in a good natured way) when he obliviously admits to these faux pas.  or is that faux pass? or faux pas's. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2010, 06:41:42 AM »
Whatever floats your boat, David.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2010, 06:43:09 AM »
Scott
There are more than a few errors, but that book was written a long time ago, and it was the best information available at the time. I don't think you would necessarily buy that book for the course attributions though most of them are accurate.

Anthony Gray

Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2010, 08:06:07 AM »


  I have the book and I have not noticed any errors.

  Anthony


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2010, 09:42:13 AM »
I'm generally pretty good at catching errors, and I don't remember any from my 3 copies :)...but they were all High Pointe editions, so maybe that was why.

It's pretty stunning what gets by newspaper and TV folks these days. I think it's the reliance on technology, versus a pair of good eyes. The other day I saw something on the NFL Network about an offensive lineman who (supposedly) ran a 4.26 40 at the combine, and the person reading the teleprompter didn't even catch the error. Guess this 300+ pound behemoth was faster than the guy who made the US track finals in the 100...

The flip side is that when you get too angry over little things, you might miss bigger things. There is a very fun little book called Wry Stories On The Road Hole. In the intro, the author refers to it as the 14th, which everyone who knows anything about golf knows is not the Road Hole. I still bought the book - and it is on the 17th! - and it was a lot of fun to read.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Gregg Evans

Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2010, 10:16:46 AM »
I've had  a copy for years, and I don't even  recall where I bought it.
 I've always enjoyed Tom's candor and his writing ability going back to a series of articles in Golf Digest in the early 80's when he was a Cornell student and I was a jealous Chemistry major feigning interest in Organic.
I read mine often. I met a guy who is a member of several clubs in France the other day and went to the CG to check for a review on the courses just last night.
Love it, hate it... whatever . I never fail to get a feeling about a place and as Anthony says the passion is the winner.
I would guess Tom will see this, so I wanted to share an insight about Ballybunion that occurred to me while reading his review on the top course I'd play everyday if I could.
Much has been written about the relative poor value of holes 4 and 5 and Tom speculates it is a good way to eat up dull ground which I can't argue with. However, in my first trip (I was striking it pretty good then, probably as good as I ever was) back in 2001 , I went par,par ,bogey, out the gate, which was not a bad start , especially when you are jacked about where you are that day.
On both 4 and 5,  with great  (for me)three wood approaches, I had very makeable eagles but nutted out, two putted for birdies and went to 6 tee suddenly one under and palms sweating. Since that time I have appreciated that the opportunity to get in the red on a thrilling course early in the round is most memorable. So maybe the dull holes of 4 and 5 at Ballybunion are more strategic  and can add more to the day than we think. Standing on the 7 tee under par looking out at the beach is as close as some of us will get to it.
Love the book myself.
That was a unique experience,but that's the beauty of the CG. If you can play it, you can compare. Fun and thought provoking.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 10:18:54 AM by Gregg Evans »

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2010, 10:18:03 AM »
Confidential Guide is rock solid regarding errors or inacurracies in comparison to another golf book that made a smaller splash a number of years ago.

Johnny Miller's I Call the Shots had dozens (literally) of factual errors, including him getting the year wrong on his US Open comeback win, the number of Majors won by Tom Watson, and many other very simple mistakes.  it was appalling to read.

In defense of Doak---any book that is chock full of facts/figures is a "nesting ground" for errors...hard to avoid.  I was lucky or sharp-eyed enough to avoid an egregious error on the cover of my first book in the proofing process...had I missed it, I doubt I would've had the constitution to write all the others.

The nitwit publisher had typeset "Forward by Rees Jones" instead of "Foreword by Rees Jones."  Would have been hard to live that down had it gone to print...

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2010, 10:24:22 AM »
Since this book is the Bible, by definition it has no errors.... ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2010, 11:50:28 AM »
I am not sure that is correct.  You are generally only allowed to copy material for educational reasons, unless you have the written permission of the copyright owner.   


I don't think Wiley would be too happy if you copied their latest university Physics text book. It's educational, but is it legal to copy?
In the UK (and, I suspect but am not sure, Australia) copying for educational purposes is only exempt from infringement if it is done by non-reprographic methods.

As to whether Scott (or his friend who made the copy) have a fair use defence, that will depend on the extent of the copying and the purpose of it.  Sadly, although he may have criticised the work it would appear that that was not the purpose of the copying, so I suspect Sean's proposed defence is not available.

A note of my fees follows.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 12:32:56 PM »


  I have the book and I have not noticed any errors.

  Anthony



Now that's funny!


I would also note there is no dot in Is. But, maybe someone else pointed that out. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 01:54:25 PM »
What the hell?! I came here for a golf course architecture discussion and a grammar lesson breaks out.  ;)
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Anthony Gray

Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2010, 02:02:48 PM »
What the hell?! I came here for a golf course architecture discussion and a grammar lesson breaks out.  ;)


  Stick with me Mike.

  Anthony


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2010, 02:07:32 PM »
What the hell?! I came here for a golf course architecture discussion and a grammar lesson breaks out.  ;)


  Stick with me Mike.

  Anthony



Wahts the big deel with a few misppelled words?

Sinceerely,

Anthony   ;)

Anthony Gray

Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2010, 02:31:51 PM »
What the hell?! I came here for a golf course architecture discussion and a grammar lesson breaks out.  ;)


  Stick with me Mike.

  Anthony



Wahts the big deel with a few misppelled words?

Sinceerely,

Anthony   ;)

  Could not have said it better...Thanks Kalen



Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2010, 02:38:41 PM »
Anthony,
I have to confess that the sign on my desk reads "Got Grammar?"  ;D
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2010, 02:51:08 PM »
Thie thread sort of reminds me of Allan Iverson...man we are talking about practice..practice man I mean practice....

The book remains a classic and now perhaps even has more character ;D...you mean Mr Doak makes mistakes!!!!!!

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide errors
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2010, 03:54:55 PM »
Whatever floats your boat, David.
Good to see you continue to play the man, not the ball.  An apology would have been quite simple, I would have thought. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.