The Best Course in Florida - Seminole vs. Calusa Pines

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

You have to keep posting to keep thread going is the answer. It is a very nice club with an interestng and probably cool clubhouse with good service. it is the best in the area and if one is going to live in Naples it is the place to join. I have played it twice and cannot remember a hole. I can remember all the other stuff including the practice area though. That should tell you something. i remember every hole at Seminole and on great courses a certain percentage of holes stick with you. I even remember many holes at the Consession and frankly feel it is argueable a better course. Pine Tree, ML, Sugarloaf, World Woods are all better to me. My guess is there are 4 or 5 more that are better as well. It is just a good course and thats not a bad thing.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

You have to keep posting to keep thread going is the answer. It is a very nice club with an interestng and probably cool clubhouse with good service. it is the best in the area and if one is going to live in Naples it is the place to join. I have played it twice and cannot remember a hole. I can remember all the other stuff including the practice area though. That should tell you something. i remember every hole at Seminole and on great courses a certain percentage of holes stick with you. I even remember many holes at the Consession and frankly feel it is agueable a better course. Pine Tree, ML, Sugarloaf, World Woods are all better to me. My guess is there are 4 or 5 more that are better as well. It is just a good course and thats not a bad thing.

Thanks for the reply Tiger. Honestly I'm shocked you can't remember a single hole there as all of them are so unique but as always to each his own. Was "good" but not great your initial thought when walking off the course? Or can you just not remember anything about it other than the service and practice range? Also what about the guys you played with?

[George Pazin]

I have not played Seminole, so I can't chime in but here is a pretty good Calusa thread with John Mayhugh pics:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32419.0/

Thanks, Mike! You read my mind...

Patrick, I think a My Home Course piece is in order.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I have not played Seminole, so I can't chime in but here is a pretty good Calusa thread with John Mayhugh pics:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32419.0/

Thanks, Mike! You read my mind...

Patrick, I think a My Home Course piece is in order.

Would be happy to George as long as looping there qualifies as "my home." 

I should be able to get a more full set of pictures later this Spring after daylight savings time changes when the caddy group isn't playing as fast as possible to finish by dark.

[cary lichtenstein]

I don't get it. My first round at Seminole I thought it was no better than a public muni. My 2nd round confirmed that.

If you need the stemp at 12 and 30 mph to make it a true test, I don't think the greens were designed for a 12.

I still don't get it

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

My first impression was it was a fun good course and head and shoulders the best in Naples which is a golf poor area quality wise. We had a presentation from Hurdzen discussing the challenges with building in the area. I played it again and enjoyed the overall feel of the place more and more but frankly the course opinion did not change. This is a discussion with friends each year when a Calousa Member invites one of them and compared to the rest of Naples along with the bravado of the club leaves them saying wow what a great place. One of them an ex basketball player who is a very nice guy considering he posts on here and claims Barny for a buddy. I just do not see anyone challenging Calusa market position in the area for many years which is a compliment. It will be the place to be in SW Florida. I think that is high praise. But please do nt make me chose between Calusa, Seminole or Mountain Lake for it is 3rd to me.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Cary I can only assume you are having a bad day in the market or are trying to grab the shock post of the week award.

[JC Jones]

Cary I can only assume you are having a bad day in the market or are trying to grab the shock post of the week award.

ditto

[JC Jones]

David,

You could start with the (up to) 40 feet of elevation changes.  As you know, this area is as flat as can be, I don't care how much native vegetation is on the course, there is no chance that amount of elevation and land movement is natural and fitting in with the surroundings.

[Anthony_Nysse]

David,
And someone posted earlier that CP had an "unlimited budget": that, in and of itself, is very, VERY far from the truth. While it obviously needed some capital to turn that farmland into the course that it is, the budget was never "unlimited", regardless of some who were not involved might claim.

Thanks, David

David,
  UNLIMITED BUDGET some times can mean that they have more money that anyone and I've recently been part of a recent survey and I would say the CP funds anre in the top of the top 1%.

[John Mayhugh]

I have played several rounds at Calusa.  It is a very solid golf course and I like it a lot.

I have not played Seminole.  Doak gives Seminole a 9.  I haven't played all of his 9s, but ones I have seen in person include Oakmont, Prairie Dunes, Riviera, Pebble Beach, & Royal County Down.  I do not think Calusa comes anywhere close to the other 9s that I have listed.  My feeling it that it's a very good 7.  To say it's better architecturally than Seminole would seem to be principally an argument that Seminole is overrated. 

Patrick,
Do you think Seminiole is overrated or shouldn't be in the same league as the other courses Doak gave 9s to?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I have played several rounds at Calusa.  It is a very solid golf course and I like it a lot.

I have not played Seminole.  Doak gives Seminole a 9.  I haven't played all of his 9s, but ones I have seen in person include Oakmont, Prairie Dunes, Riviera, Pebble Beach, & Royal County Down.  I do not think Calusa comes anywhere close to the other 9s that I have listed.  My feeling it that it's a very good 7.  To say it's better architecturally than Seminole would seem to be principally an argument that Seminole is overrated. 

Patrick,
Do you think Seminiole is overrated or shouldn't be in the same league as the other courses Doak gave 9s to?

John-

I very much think Seminole is a fantastic golf course and is the best course I have played. I have no doubt it is a 9 on the Doak scale. My first instinct after playing there is that it was a better course than CP.

My problem is now having tried to compare Calusa to it, I have trouble coming up with reasons that Calusa is architecturally inferior to Seminole.

You say it's a very good 7. What is it missing or lacking architecturally that makes it a 7 and not a 9?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, I find the beauty, character and subleties on any course I am around alot. My home courses in Louisiana where I grew up and primarily live are incredibly unique and really do not have cookie cutter holes. Yet both or them are just good courses and do not have those things which separate the good from the great. Both were designed by premier architects of their time. Maxwell on one and Dick Wilson on the other. Neither has the scale or grandeur of Calusa. But on pure golf and design alone I would put in the same universe with Calusa. I have to confess at some point the manufactored aspects of Calusa do not get pluses with me. I tend to find more in a natural feeling course. That is just one variable and certainly not the whole book or I would not lov Mac/Raynor courses like I do.

[John Mayhugh]

Patrick
A Doak 9 description includes "one of the best in the world" & "you should see this course sometime in your life."  I don't think those statements fit CP.  

It is well routed, and looks rather natural - even the elevation changes. I realize that this isn't what the surrounding land looks like, but you do not notice that from the course so it passes the natural looking test for me.  The vibe down there is really nice and the course is exquisitely conditioned.  I think these positively affect opinions, especially of a south Florida course.  

What keeps me from rating it higher?  The green surrounds can be a little too unforgiving (a bit too much target golf IMO) and I did not think the green shapes in general were that memorable.  Not at all bad, but not a wow.

If you take the other Doak 9s I listed, I just don't see how CP belongs in the same league as those.  It's a great place to play, but not one of the tops in the world.

[Mike Sweeney]

You say it's a very good 7. What is it missing or lacking architecturally that makes it a 7 and not a 9?

I am probably in the 7.5 type of range. While I really like the short drivable Par 4 and the Par 3 that looks down to the green wedged between water, I can't say they are All World holes.

A 9 needs at least 2 All World holes IMO.

I think World Woods Pine Barrens, edges Calusa out as it has at least 2 All Worldish holes.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick
A Doak 9 description includes "one of the best in the world" & "you should see this course sometime in your life."  I don't think those statements fit CP.  

It is well routed, and looks rather natural - even the elevation changes. I realize that this isn't what the surrounding land looks like, but you do not notice that from the course so it passes the natural looking test for me.  The vibe down there is really nice and the course is exquisitely conditioned.  I think these positively affect opinions, especially of a south Florida course.  

What keeps me from rating it higher?  The green surrounds can be a little too unforgiving (a bit too much target golf IMO) and I did not think the green shapes in general were that memorable.  Not at all bad, but not a wow.

If you take the other Doak 9s I listed, I just don't see how CP belongs in the same league as those.  It's a great place to play, but not one of the tops in the world.

Thanks for the reply John.

Perhaps Seminole isn't a Doak 9 then because I get the same feeling I do there with the greens as I do at Calusa. I agree as I've said a few times that CP's can be too unforgiving at times to marginally good shots. Interesting to not however that lot of that fits into Doak's description of what a great set of greens includes though. Personally I think the same can be said at Seminole and so I've heard at Pinehurst #2 in terms of being unforgiving.

Also if you didn't think the green "shapes" (and by that I infer you mean size/configuration/contours, etc) at Calusa were that memorable I would be surprised if you found Seminole's to be once you play it.

My follow up question is what do you feel the greens at CP lack, or in other words what might have made them more memorable? Do they need more movement, different surrounds, or what? Obviously you remember them being quite penal otherwise you wouldn't say they might be too tough.

Also do you think that Calusa fails to fit this description:

One of the very best courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

[JESII]

Isn't it also possible that 80 years carries its own significance? What will CP look like (compared to today) when it is 80 years old? I think there is merit to enduring through time. I haven't played Calusa but have heard all great comments. I think Seminole is awesome in that sneak up behind you sort of way...

[Patrick Hodgdon]

You say it's a very good 7. What is it missing or lacking architecturally that makes it a 7 and not a 9?

I am probably in the 7.5 type of range. While I really like the short drivable Par 4 and the Par 3 that looks down to the green wedged between water, I can't say they are All World holes.

A 9 needs at least 2 All World holes IMO.

I think World Woods Pine Barrens, edges Calusa out as it has at least 2 All Worldish holes.

Interesting take on it Mike. I offer the same question as I asked John, does Calusa fit this description:

One of the very best courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

Does Calusa have something "really special" with it's elevation changes and greens or does it come up short?

Also for those that have played Seminole and some of the other 9's and 10's on the Doak Scale, what two (or more) holes at Seminole would you pick out as "all-world" holes?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Isn't it also possible that 80 years carries its own significance? What will CP look like (compared to today) when it is 80 years old? I think there is merit to enduring through time. I haven't played Calusa but have heard all great comments. I think Seminole is awesome in that sneak up behind you sort of way...

Interesting thoughts Jim. Can an "all-world" course really sneak up behind you though?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Pat, I find the beauty, character and subleties on any course I am around alot. My home courses in Louisiana where I grew up and primarily live are incredibly unique and really do not have cookie cutter holes. Yet both or them are just good courses and do not have those things which separate the good from the great. Both were designed by premier architects of their time. Maxwell on one and Dick Wilson on the other. Neither has the scale or grandeur of Calusa. But on pure golf and design alone I would put in the same universe with Calusa. I have to confess at some point the manufactored aspects of Calusa do not get pluses with me. I tend to find more in a natural feeling course. That is just one variable and certainly not the whole book or I would not lov Mac/Raynor courses like I do.

See maybe it's just that I've been around CP a lot and know some of the remarkable subtleties and character. Every hole I would even argue has it's own character or "twist" as I believe CBM once said a good course should have on every hole, and no two are alike.

As to the manufactured aspect you can't get over, does CP feel manufactured or is it more that you just know that it is and can't get past it? (Which there is certainly nothing wrong with, I'm just curious.)

[JESII]

I think so Patrick...people find new stuff the more they see a course (like you've done with CP)...the world class courses take a little longer to see all the new stuff than the next level down.

[George Pazin]

Can an "all-world" course really sneak up behind you though?

Sure sounds like one sneaked right past a few people you've looped for...

There is an interesting remark in one of the World Atlas of Golf editions about Seminole. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but it said something to the effect that a handful of famous architects were asked which 5 courses they would say everyone should study and only 5 courses made everyone's list, and Seminole was one of them. (I hope I got that right, I'll try to look it up at home tonight.)

There are a lot of courses that really challenge golfers in an overall sense. But the best make you think about every shot, and are especially reluctant to give up each stroke - yet they will, given thoughtful, well-executed play. Hope that makes sense.

-----

Regarding CP, I think when you have seen any particular course a bunch of times, you start to see things that in reality are just things that exist in most golf. Mackenzie spoke of that when he commented on how most see their home course in far better light than outsiders do.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I think so Patrick...people find new stuff the more they see a course (like you've done with CP)...the world class courses take a little longer to see all the new stuff than the next level down.

Yea I think that can be true. I suppose the repeated play is what can take a course from a 7 to 8 or an 8 to a 9 in people's minds.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Can an "all-world" course really sneak up behind you though?

Sure sounds like one sneaked right past a few people you've looped for...

There is an interesting remark in one of the World Atlas of Golf editions about Seminole. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but it said something to the effect that a handful of famous architects were asked which 5 courses they would say everyone should study and only 5 courses made everyone's list, and Seminole was one of them. (I hope I got that right, I'll try to look it up at home tonight.)

There are a lot of courses that really challenge golfers in an overall sense. But the best make you think about every shot, and are especially reluctant to give up each stroke - yet they will, given thoughtful, well-executed play. Hope that makes sense.

-----

Regarding CP, I think when you have seen any particular course a bunch of times, you start to see things that in reality are just things that exist in most golf. Mackenzie spoke of that when he commented on how most see their home course in far better light than outsiders do.

Thanks George. And I certainly agree with the "home course skew" which is why I want to draw people's answers out and understand their views architecturally and also why I started this thread, because I was having a hard time coming up with reasons, other than Seminole's site is natural and Calusa's is man made, that Seminole is the superior course architecturally, which is what I want to be able to argue.

As for the best courses making you think about every shot, I believe that CP fits that bill too.

[JESII]

I think you'll struggle to find someone that likes Seminole less as they play it more...maybe that's what the phrase "stands the tests of time" means...Calusa is great from everything I have heard, but can it stand the test of time? We'll see.