[Patrick Hodgdon]

Well since we've had a number of threads about Florida's mediocre golf courses in general let's talk about the best.

The inspiration for this post is the regularity with which people I caddy for consider Calusa Pines to be the best course in the entire state of Florida. Normally I don't pay too much attention to it unless they mention that 1) they've played Seminole as well and 2) they can give me some reasons architecturally as to why they believe CP is a better golf course than Seminole.

I know that I am one of what I think is a very small group of people to have played both courses which limits the ability for a lot to help debate these two fine courses. Personally having loved my round at Seminole so much, and having worked at CP for 5 years, I am really torn on this debate and have been wrestling with it for weeks.

The most compelling argument a few people have made is that if you take away the clubhouses/history/awe of just getting on it from Seminole that Calusa beats it on sheer golf course merits. Most argue that Calusa just has an a better variety of holes that call for so many different shots and has some of the best green complexes that demand the most precise precision from the golfer with his approach shots. To me so does Seminole.

I shot 83 in my one round at Seminole and feel I could have broken 80 there with the local knowledge gained from the round were I to play it again. 84 is my low at Calusa in close to 50 rounds there and I would consider it to be the harder golf course, for what that's worth.

A big part of me feels Seminole is better but when I try and think of what Calusa lacks in comparison architecturally it is hard for me to come up with much. Calusa's routing although not as intimate as Seminole uses the wind in a similar way as Seminole does with the holes constantly changing direction on the compass. As Pat Mucci described in one of the Seminole threads once, the net effect of the wind in helping/hurting/across is always the same at Seminole and I believe that to be the case at CP too.

My one beef with Calusa is that it is a little too demanding around the greens. Even the marginally good shots get screwed as the green sites repel them in all directions. The joke is "to be Calusified" is to have a ball mark on the green and be 30 feet from the green when you get to it. I think a number of spots could be softned a bit as it is too penal for the average mid handicapper to enjoy.

Anyway I am curious to hear what those few who have played both of them think of in comparing the two. Also those that have played one or the other and maybe where it ranks against some of the other top clubs they have played might benefit the discussion.

I know rankings are a lot of time bull shit so I'm not worried more about that as much as I am as comparing what most consider the two finest courses in Florida.

Discuss.

[Paul Jones]

I remember almost every hole from Seminole, but not as many from Calusa Pines.  Both are fantastic but I will have to give the nod to Seminole.

Paul

[JC Jones]

You'll have to forgive my young friend for he has lost his ever loving mind.

Calusa isn't even the best course in Naples, let alone Florida. 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Oh boy please do tell what course in Naples is better than Calusa.

[JC Jones]

Hideout.

Anyone can look good if given an unlimited budget.  It takes more to make something great out of what nature gives you.  I prefer naturally beautiful women.  Sure the plastic rack, the excessive make up and the combination of cigarette and martini breath can be good for one night, but give me a classy, naturally beautiful woman for a lifetime.

Though I've not played Calusa and I very may well change my mind upon playing it, it is entirely manufactured.  On top of that, the features on the course are not even close to being in concert with the natural surroundings. 

Hideout, while nothing spectacular, is a fun, sporty course created from the natural surroundings and looks as though it fits within the natural surroundings. 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

So JC would Hideout also get the nod as being better than the two courses that might be built in the middle of the state by a couple of excellent archies regardless of how they look and or play, etc. because large amounts of land was moved on that site too?

Going back to Calusa, the brilliance in the design is that it looks 100 percent natural because of both the scale and the use of only indigenous plants and trees. 9 out of 10 people that don't know the construction story mistake it for being natural elevation.   

[Jason Topp]

I have never played Calusa but looking at the aerials (which is always misleading because things look flat and windless) it appears to me that many preferred angles of attack are from the outside of the dogleg.  I like such an approach as a change up but find that such an approach on a repeated basis has flaws.  Assuming the fairway hazards are placed at appropriate length, a long hitter has a double advantage because a shorter hitter may need to take an agressive angle off the tee just to reach the green - but is doubly punished by having a worse angle to the green.  A long hitter can play away from trouble and gets doubly rewarded for pure length by having a better angle to the green.  

Is my perception accurate?  

[PCCraig]

Is Calusa Pines really even the 2nd best course in FL? What about TPC Sawgrass, Jupiter Hills, World Woods? (I'm not a FL expert, but those are pretty darn good which would have to make CP great).

[Tom_Doak]

I've never seen Calusa Pines.

Still, my only question about this thread is whether the people who preferred Calusa Pines to Seminole were already persona non grata at Seminole when they made their choice, or whether they just became so after they opened their mouths!

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Tom just a month ago I caddied for a Seminole member, and as well a traveled golfer as anyone I've met, who believed Calusa to be just as good as Seminole. Your instinct is the same as mine though, to discount a lot of the people who prefer CP to Seminole, which is why I try and get them to explain there preference architecturally.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Pat- in 5 years down here I've never heard the argument for any of those courses above CP. I've never played those 3 you mention but my guess is CP really is "great" to those courses "good."

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I have never played Calusa but looking at the aerials (which is always misleading because things look flat and windless) it appears to me that many preferred angles of attack are from the outside of the dogleg.  I like such an approach as a change up but find that such an approach on a repeated basis has flaws.  Assuming the fairway hazards are placed at appropriate length, a long hitter has a double advantage because a shorter hitter may need to take an agressive angle off the tee just to reach the green - but is doubly punished by having a worse angle to the green.  A long hitter can play away from trouble and gets doubly rewarded for pure length by having a better angle to the green.  

Is my perception accurate?  

I'm leaning toward no Jason. Dog-leg holes at CP include #1, #2(somewhat) #4, #5, #6 (somewhat), #13, #14, #17, and #18. Of those I can think of only #5 as a hole where the preferred attack angle might be toward the outside of the dog leg. Maybe #13 a bit too but it's a three shot hole for all but the longest of hitters so it doesn't matter quite as much.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
Have you played Sawgrass? Calusa is a wonderful course, but I think Sawgrass provides more variety of holes and especially greens. CP has great greens, don't get me wrong, but almost all of them shrug off even slight misses, which gets a little repetitive after awhile. Both deservedly make the US 100 Greatest, but TPC should be top fifty at worst.

Haven't played Seminole, but its by no means a two-horse race.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick,
Have you played Sawgrass? Calusa is a wonderful course, but I think Sawgrass provides more variety of holes and especially greens. CP has great greens, don't get me wrong, but almost all of them shrug off even slight misses, which gets a little repetitive after awhile. Both deservedly make the US 100 Greatest, but TPC should be top fifty at worst.

Haven't played Seminole, but its by no means a two-horse race.

Andy I have not played Sawgrass (other than on Tiger Woods PGA Tour on PS3) and I certainly don't want to discount it from the discussion. I'd just never heard someone say they thought it was a better course than Calusa.

As for the green sites, as I noted in my post above it's my one beef with the course as well that it's just a little too penal for even the most slightly off-line shots. However I've heard it's the same at Pinehurst #2 and certainly Seminole has a lot of it as well.

[Andy Troeger]

I'd just never heard someone say they thought it was a better course than Calusa.

FWIW, Sawgrass is rated higher in all three major publications--so I can't be the only one! I can certainly see an argument either way--some of that will come down to personal preference.

I do think if more people paid attention they would notice that Calusa HAS to be created. There's nothing else like it in terms of terrain probably in all of South Florida. Its wonderfully done, but a little thought should clue folks in. If not for that, however, it could fool a lot of folks.

[PCCraig]

Pat- in 5 years down here I've never heard the argument for any of those courses above CP. I've never played those 3 you mention but my guess is CP really is "great" to those courses "good."

Fair enough, I haven't seen CP, and quite frankly I haven't heard much about it at all, so I was surprised to see it compared easily to Seminole?  

[Tom_Doak]

CP has great greens, don't get me wrong, but almost all of them shrug off even slight misses, which gets a little repetitive after awhile.

Andy (or anyone else):  Does Calusa Pines really have a great set of greens?  Because that's the missing element on 90% of modern courses.  And I have yet to see a course by Hurdzan/Fry with great greens ... so I'm wondering how they hit the bullseye in Naples.

Besides Pinehurst, are the greens comparable to anywhere else you can think of?

P.S.  I would not be one to judge the TPC at Sawgrass as having a great set of greens, either.

[Andy Troeger]

Tom,
"Great" could be a bit much, but I do think they are very good. One difference between the two courses is that I would say the greens at Calusa are intended to be the focus of the golf course--the playing corridors are generous.  I'm not that familiar with Hurdzan/Fry's work--I've seen about five of their courses and CP is far better than the others.

I don't think the greens are really the focus of TPC Sawgrass--a great deal of the strategy is tee to green and in many cases the long game is more of a focus.

[Mike Sweeney]

I have not played Seminole, so I can't chime in but here is a pretty good Calusa thread with John Mayhugh pics:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32419.0/

[Patrick Hodgdon]

CP has great greens, don't get me wrong, but almost all of them shrug off even slight misses, which gets a little repetitive after awhile.

Andy (or anyone else):  Does Calusa Pines really have a great set of greens?  Because that's the missing element on 90% of modern courses.  And I have yet to see a course by Hurdzan/Fry with great greens ... so I'm wondering how they hit the bullseye in Naples.

Besides Pinehurst, are the greens comparable to anywhere else you can think of?

P.S.  I would not be one to judge the TPC at Sawgrass as having a great set of greens, either.

Tom yes Calusa really does have a great set of greens. As I've said a couple of times I think they can be too penal in a few spots and could be softened a bit, but they have lots of great movement, variations in shapes and sizes and surrounds. Other than being maybe a little too tough it would be hard for me to argue that Seminole's were much better.

As for how they hit the bullseye here and not in any of the other courses you've seen my only guess is it's a result of all the time Dana put into designing and constructing the course. As far as I know/heard he spent more time at CP than any course he's done.

I would highly suggest checking them out on your next FL swing. I'd love to loop for you and hear your thoughts.

[archie_struthers]

 

Haven't played enough on the Wes t Coast but Indian Creek  is really special

[Matt Harrison]

Interesting thread!  I have played both courses.  And, I have played both courses with guys who know the game, golf courses, and Florida courses pretty well.  That doesn't make me a genius, that's for sure, but I have my opinions and have discussed them with some other well-traveled players who love good courses and played collegiate golf in the state.  I was also lucky to visit Calusa a couple times during the construction phase.

In my opinion, Calusa is not as good as Seminole.  Seminole just fits the land too well, and has so many good strategic holes and shots.  The site is just by far better.  However, Calusa really is a great golf course.  It just happens to be much more manufactured.  For anyone to say that other courses in Naples are better, especially when they have not played it, is very surprising to me.

Calusa's greens are pretty interesting, and I think quite good, particularly for Florida greens.  They do not have predictable contours like so many Florida courses.  Unfortunately, because the land is so flat naturally, they do not feel natural or lay of the land as compared to Seminole.  But, with that said, they are very challenging and fun, and do look pretty natural most of the time.

We took a trip a couple years ago with 8 guys and played both, and everyone loved both courses, but the consensus was, especially with the guys who had seen lots of top 100 courses, that Seminole was a bit better.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Interesting thread!  I have played both courses.  And, I have played both courses with guys who know the game, golf courses, and Florida courses pretty well.  That doesn't make me a genius, that's for sure, but I have my opinions and have discussed them with some other well-traveled players who love good courses and played collegiate golf in the state.  I was also lucky to visit Calusa a couple times during the construction phase.

In my opinion, Calusa is not as good as Seminole.  Seminole just fits the land too well, and has so many good strategic holes and shots.  The site is just by far better.  However, Calusa really is a great golf course.  It just happens to be much more manufactured.  For anyone to say that other courses in Naples are better, especially when they have not played it, is very surprising to me.

Calusa's greens are pretty interesting, and I think quite good, particularly for Florida greens.  They do not have predictable contours like so many Florida courses.  Unfortunately, because the land is so flat naturally, they do not feel natural or lay of the land as compared to Seminole.  But, with that said, they are very challenging and fun, and do look pretty natural most of the time.

We took a trip a couple years ago with 8 guys and played both, and everyone loved both courses, but the consensus was, especially with the guys who had seen lots of top 100 courses, that Seminole was a bit better.

Matt- Appreciate your reply as it was exactly the type of response I was looking for. Sounds like the consensus was Seminole was better simply because it's site was naturally there and CP's was manufactured.

A couple of follow-up questions,

1) Do you get the feeling while playing it, that Calusa is manufactured or is it more that you just know it is? (knowing both the history and having seen the construction)

2) You said Seminole has "so many good strategic holes and shots" and I have to agree. I'd be curious to hear more in depth comparison between the two courses in terms of "strategic holes." (i.e. which holes on each course you would put in that category and which you wouldn't)

3) Just out of curiosity was there anyone in group that differed from the majority in giving Seminole the nod?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There is nothing in Naples or nearby better than Calusa. However it is not top 5 or and at best is top 10 in Florida. Seminole deserves to be considered first. Calusa is not in the discussion. As one Mr Jones noted he remembered every hole at Seminole and does not at Calusa. I am tickled to see the area with the 2nd whitest beaches in Florida try to lay claim to best course but that dog or gator as it be, does not hunt.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Seminole deserves to be considered first. Calusa is not in the discussion.

Tell me more. Why isn't it in the discussion?

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