Why is flat seen as being so difficult?

[John Moore II]

But Jon, the key is what kind of flat land are we talking about, and how flat? Flat on sandy soil, like the links courses, is fine, it will naturally drain easily and it has a little bit of roll. But the kind of flat like you see at PGA National in this weeks tournament, you have to do some big work to get that place to drain at all, and that type of land is almost pan flat all around. Take the 3 courses at PGA Golf Club (and at whatever private club that is back there sharing the same property). I'd bet that before the designers got on site, those places didn't have more than 2 feet of elevation change through the whole site, with poor drainage because the soil is thick dark stuff. Flat can work OK, but it depends on the soil and just how flat we're talking about.

[Jon Wiggett]

Cary,

it might confirm the difficulty but not the reason. Also, the Florida problem is not so much that the land is flat but rather submerged

John,

you make a very valid point about soil type. Though poorly draining ground is often no easier to drain on a hilly property as on a flat property. I still stongly believe that the main drains should be laid as deeply a possible.

[John Moore II]

John,

you make a very valid point about soil type. Though poorly draining ground is often no easier to drain on a hilly property as on a flat property. I still stongly believe that the main drains should be laid as deeply a possible.

In all seriousness, do most golf courses have full drainage installed in the fairways and such? I have worked at places where certain holes had installed drainage, and I know Tobacco Road has drainage installed in hollows where water would tend to accumulate, but is it normal to have full course installed drainage? I was not aware of that to be the case normally.

[Niall C]

Is Kingsbarns better than Muirfield ? I think you would find the golfing public would laugh at that idea yet Muirfield is a relatively flat site with some features but a lot of the course is fairly subtle in terms of ground movement whereas KB is anything but. BTW, who says Kingsbarns was ever a flat site in any case. It might not have had the dunes but there were some big elevational changes on the site.

Niall

[Tom Yost]

I think Talking Stick North perfectly illustrates why a flat site is difficult. 

Bucking the trend of building courses on flat sites by moving millions of cubic yards of dirt, C&C built a wonderful course with a minimalist touch that is virtually ignored by the regular golfing public and in fact, generates widely polarized reviews from the GCA crowd.

Like many, the first time I played it, I shrugged my shoulders and wondered what is the big deal.  But after a half dozen more plays, TSN has really grown on me.

I wouldn't call it a destination by any means, but I think it stands as a very strong example of what can be done on a dead flat site and offers a unique contrast to the typical highly engineered flat site offerings found everywhere in the greater Phoenix area.

[Jon Wiggett]

In all seriousness, do most golf courses have full drainage installed in the fairways and such? I have worked at places where certain holes had installed drainage, and I know Tobacco Road has drainage installed in hollows where water would tend to accumulate, but is it normal to have full course installed drainage? I was not aware of that to be the case normally.

John,

most courses I have worked at have not had full drainage installed but even where you are just laying a dedicated drain it would be advisable to lay it as deep as possible.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Master Jon Wiggett:

You wrote the title of this thread---"Re: Why is flat seen as been so difficult?"

Take that title home with you tonight and work on it. If it is not repaired by class tomorrow you will be given 110 demerits and made to stay after class and write "being," "Being," "BEING" no less than 1,029 times.

Tom, 'No fewer', please, not 'no less'.

Four of us played Formby today and the flat holes entertained us every bit as well the undulating holes. 

[paul cowley]

Yes, I have seen pictures and I think it looks reasonably natural. ...

Natural? My thoughts were, ... that looks awful.

After that, I guess I won't get invited by any of the members to play there.

Garland....with all due respect, you seem at times a pompous fool seeking attention while clinging to the pant legs of those you deride....a know nothing negative when it comes to understanding what it takes to design.

What the f*** have you done that makes you so special?