[Garland Bayley]

  ...And, at most private clubs, pull carts aren't allowed and carrying is discouraged or too much work for most older players.  Sorry, purists, carts aren't a necessary evil; they're necessary for mass enjoyment.

Sounds like the a..h...s at these "most private clubs" need to stop being a..h...s and let people play golf.
I don't know where these "most private clubs" are, but they certainly are not ones I have seen around Portland, but then Portland and Oregon claim to think different than most places. The motto being "keep things weird."

Those that want to "keep things weird" think someone who thinks carts are necessary for mass enjoyment is delusional.

[Anthony Gray]

I am horrified when I see aerials of courses in housing estates with 300 yard drives between houses to get to the next hole surrounded by yet more condos. Without carts these places would never get built.

  Most of those people in those houses are golfers.

[Garland Bayley]

I am horrified when I see aerials of courses in housing estates with 300 yard drives between houses to get to the next hole surrounded by yet more condos. Without carts these places would never get built.

  Most of those people in those houses are golfers.

Not so Anthony. Most of those people in those houses are cartballers.

[JMEvensky]

Carts are the prime example of game of golf vs business of golf.  What is good for one is rarely good for the other. 

This may be the most profound thing ever written here.

Sadly,the "business golf" side at clubs is frequently made up of those who have little knowledge of playing.They make no distinction between selling cheeseburgers and renting carts.Each is just a revenue stream.The golf course is just another amenity which should be maximized for revenue and minimized for expense.

[Anthony Gray]

  There is a handful of guys in my neighbor hood that are old and can't play without a cart. Tuesday-Friday they provide half the revenue to rthe course.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

  There is a handful of guys in my neighbor hood that are old and can't play without a cart. Tuesday-Friday they provide half the revenue to rthe course.

  Anthony

They must be uber-rich. 5 guys funding half the course. You must be uber-rich too. Apparently you and 4 other guys fund the rest of the course. Must be one of the most exclusive courses in your area.  

How old is old enough to not be able to play without a cart?

[David_Tepper]

Pete Dye's prediction was not utterly and completely wrong, but almost.

Worldwide, there are more golf courses and more people playing golf than ever before, certainly way more than when Mr. Dye made his faulty prediction.  How many of them ever worked as a caddy? 1.0%? 2.0?   

[Tim Nugent]

Garland, I believe he meant that weekday play makes up half the revenue.  I doubt it as those rounds are often discounted to that of weekend play and weekday players don't spend as much on other things.  But, many weekday players are retired and older. Don't forget about things like arthritus (trust me, I don't).  As much as I dispise them, carts are a part of the business model.  If courses didn't generate revenue from them, they would need to get it from somewhere else - like raising greens fees, practice balls, food & bev prices. 

Since you like to walk, what skin is it off your nose if someone rides?  You should be thanking them, they are subsidizing your golf.  As for caddies, I don't know if many clubs make any money on them and would suspect that it may cost money (caddie master) on the net.

It would be interesting to see a list of walking only courses.  I know The Dunes Club is.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, I believe he meant that weekday play makes up half the revenue.  I doubt it as those rounds are often discounted to that of weekend play and weekday players don't spend as much on other things.  But, many weekday players are retired and older. Don't forget about things like arthritus (trust me, I don't).  As much as I dispise them, carts are a part of the business model.  If courses didn't generate revenue from them, they would need to get it from somewhere else - like raising greens fees, practice balls, food & bev prices. 

Since you like to walk, what skin is it off your nose if someone rides?  You should be thanking them, they are subsidizing your golf.  As for caddies, I don't know if many clubs make any money on them and would suspect that it may cost money (caddie master) on the net.

It would be interesting to see a list of walking only courses.  I know The Dunes Club is.

I've been walking and playing for over 10 years with osteoarthritis in my joints.
My health insurance premiums are higher because of the people with the riding attitude. There's some skin for you.

[Bill_McBride]

Garland, I believe he meant that weekday play makes up half the revenue.  I doubt it as those rounds are often discounted to that of weekend play and weekday players don't spend as much on other things.  But, many weekday players are retired and older. Don't forget about things like arthritus (trust me, I don't).  As much as I dispise them, carts are a part of the business model.  If courses didn't generate revenue from them, they would need to get it from somewhere else - like raising greens fees, practice balls, food & bev prices. 

Since you like to walk, what skin is it off your nose if someone rides?  You should be thanking them, they are subsidizing your golf.  As for caddies, I don't know if many clubs make any money on them and would suspect that it may cost money (caddie master) on the net.

It would be interesting to see a list of walking only courses.  I know The Dunes Club is.

I've been walking and playing for over 10 years with osteoarthritis in my joints.
My health insurance premiums are higher because of the people with the riding attitude. There's some skin for you.

Garland, why would that be true?  Aren't your premiums based on your situation?  Just curious.

[Tim Nugent]

Garland, I believe he meant that weekday play makes up half the revenue.  I doubt it as those rounds are often discounted to that of weekend play and weekday players don't spend as much on other things.  But, many weekday players are retired and older. Don't forget about things like arthritus (trust me, I don't).  As much as I dispise them, carts are a part of the business model.  If courses didn't generate revenue from them, they would need to get it from somewhere else - like raising greens fees, practice balls, food & bev prices. 

Since you like to walk, what skin is it off your nose if someone rides?  You should be thanking them, they are subsidizing your golf.  As for caddies, I don't know if many clubs make any money on them and would suspect that it may cost money (caddie master) on the net.

It would be interesting to see a list of walking only courses.  I know The Dunes Club is.

I've been walking and playing for over 10 years with osteoarthritis in my joints.
My health insurance premiums are higher because of the people with the riding attitude. There's some skin for you.

Sounds like a pre-existing condition.  Don't worry, Big O and the boys in DC are going to fix that for you

[Jud_T]

Simple solution to the health care problem...charge by the pound....

[Tim Nugent]

Only if you divided by the inch - 5'8" and 220 is different than 6'4" and 220.   

[Anthony Gray]

  There is a handful of guys in my neighbor hood that are old and can't play without a cart. Tuesday-Friday they provide half the revenue to rthe course.

  Anthony

They must be uber-rich. 5 guys funding half the course. You must be uber-rich too. Apparently you and 4 other guys fund the rest of the course. Must be one of the most exclusive courses in your area.  

How old is old enough to not be able to play without a cart?

  Our course barely has money to mow the grass.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

...My health insurance premiums are higher because of the people with the riding attitude. There's some skin for you.

Garland, why would that be true?  Aren't your premiums based on your situation?  Just curious.

Premiums are based on the population insured. It is a well known fact that the American population is getting less and less exercise, and becoming more and more obese, thereby leading to higher health premiums.

[Bill_Yates]

Question: How much money is Bandon Dunes losing by not having any golf carts?

I say ZERO.  When you design walkable courses that provide dramatic and traditional playing experiences that people are demanding to play, you can make the rules, have caddies and make plenty of money.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . As much as I dispise them, carts are a part of the business model.  If courses didn't generate revenue from them, they would need to get it from somewhere else - like raising greens fees, practice balls, food & bev prices.  Since you like to walk, what skin is it off your nose if someone rides?  You should be thanking them, they are subsidizing your golf. . . .

By way of contrast, our club's 2010 plan was to reduce the cart fees and increase dues, in part to reduce the subsidy provided by the riders.  The Board did not implement the total proposed reduction, so I'm not sure how the final numbers shook out from a balancing standpoint.  Maybe Roger Wolfe could chime in on this.

[Mike_Young]

I would be willing to bet the turf damage outweighs the benefits to carts aesthetically and financially...BUT carts allow an older generation continue to play golf and stay active

Bill,
And if an older person puts on rollerblades they can stay on a treadmill all day long....
Carts are a detriment to the health of the older members....the older guys at our club that play the longest all walk...and some are 90....so what is it the chicken or the egg....as said before by someone...carts are for nothing more than the BUSINESS of golf....if it were not for carts we would not have half of the bad golf courses we have.....think about it...crappy routings with holes 300 yards a part...holes cut into hills where they should never be....it can be said that the golf car was the downfall of golf....
Maybe Pete Dye was onto something....
cheers

[Garland Bayley]

as said before by someone...carts are for nothing more than the BUSINESS of golf....if it were not for carts we would not have half of the bad golf courses we have.....think about it...crappy routings with holes 300 yards a part...holes cut into hills where they should never be....it can be said that the golf car was the downfall of golf....

I thought that bore repeating. 

[Mike Hamilton]

    You all seem to ignore a very important fact - carts are much cheaper than caddies.  Carts run around $30 per round, caddies $60.  That's $3,000 per year for an active golfer.  Not chicken feed.  Money counts!  And the answer isn't to raise cart fees.  An extra $60 per round (after green fees or dues are paid) is a lot of money.  For many, too much.  And, at most private clubs, pull carts aren't allowed and carrying is discouraged or too much work for most older players.  Sorry, purists, carts aren't a necessary evil; they're necessary for mass enjoyment.

Although I don't agree that carts are necessary for mass enjoyment, Jim's point here is right on target.  I'm guessing that in equal dollars, labor to carry a golf bag was a round off 50 years ago.  Today's US minimum wage is $7.25/hr.  So the COST for 4 hours best case is $30 for someone to carry your bag...more than likely with taxes, SS, 5 hr rounds, etc., etc. like $50.  Clubs that provide caddies at $50-$60 I'm sure are just covering cost...whereas $20 for a cart must be half profit.  Many people look at $50 as the most they'll pay for a round of golf.  There is no room for caddies (in the US) in that equation.

I honestly think you could shift a signifcant portion of folks from riding to walking if it weren't for carrying or even pulling the bag.  But the economics don't work.

And Bandon is not exactly a random data point of how to make money on a walking only course.

[jeffwarne]

    You all seem to ignore a very important fact - carts are much cheaper than caddies.  Carts run around $30 per round, caddies $60.  That's $3,000 per year for an active golfer.  Not chicken feed.  Money counts!  And the answer isn't to raise cart fees.  An extra $60 per round (after green fees or dues are paid) is a lot of money.  For many, too much.  And, at most private clubs, pull carts aren't allowed and carrying is discouraged or too much work for most older players.  Sorry, purists, carts aren't a necessary evil; they're necessary for mass enjoyment.

I honestly think you could shift a signifcant portion of folks from riding to walking if it weren't for carrying or even pulling the bag. 

AN awful lot would if clubs would just let them

[Bill_Yates]

Mike H,
Of course Bandon is not a random data point, I chose it specifically because it is an enterprise that makes walking only courses profitable - as does almost every course in the UK and Ireland.

[SB]

You are looking at the wrong equation.  The question is not carts vs. caddies.  At $60-$80 extra per round, caddies are simply too expensive for all but the most expensive courses and clubs.  Caddies simply can't be supported on a regular basis.  The real equation is carts vs. walking.  Will a golfer choose to take a cart for an additional $15 bucks and they are voting with their (lack of) feet.  Even at municipal courses where the average green fee is around $15 bucks, 50% of golfers choose carts.  At high end daily fee courses that are walkable, it is more like 80%.  Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

[Garland Bayley]

...Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

And exactly how do you know that? Have you a statistically valid survey that asked questions well enough to know what they want?

IMO you need to write so we know what you know, and when you are simply blowing air.

[Bill_McBride]

...Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

And exactly how do you know that? Have you a statistically valid survey that asked questions well enough to know what they want?

IMO you need to write so we know what you know, and when you are simply blowing air.

Ah Garland, more hot air of your own, this is what is known as "anecdotal evidence," and do you seriously think it's far off the mark?

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