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Kevin Pallier

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Bob

Is PB a "sacred cow" ? :-X

I've got Monterey Peninsula Country Club next  :P

Scott Coan

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2010, 08:20:29 PM »

That said – others may find the overall feeling of PB well outweighs the sum of the individual parts and that’s one’s prerogative. I said on another thread – if given a choice I would gladly plum for CP over it and I fail to understand how some think it deserves a spot among the Top half dozen in the USA let alone the Top Ten in the world !!

Case in point – in the recent GM World Top100 the following courses from the US were listed behind it:
- Merion (East)
- Sand Hills
- National Golf Links of America
- Pacific Dunes
- Fishers Island
If someone can tell me why PB is better than any of the above I would be keen to hear why ?

PB is a very good course – and it’s obviously iconic but does it belong among the “very best” ? Certainly I am one who thinks not.

When I hear a guy like Jack Niklaus say that if if he had only one play left that it would be at Pebble that goes a long way for me.  He aint just sayin it because he's won there as he's won everywhere...

Bob_Huntley

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Bob

Is PB a "sacred cow" ? :-X

I've got Monterey Peninsula Country Club next  :P


Oops, I had better be quiet for a while.

Bob

Tim Bert

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Kevin - There are plenty of folks on here that can tell you why Pebble is superior to Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills and lots of other modern courses... but you don't have to believe them and neither do I. 

The funny thing is that those people always somehow end up calling this "Pebble bashing" even though that couldn't be farther from the truth.  I like the course a lot.  I've just seen several courses in the states I like better.


Kevin Pallier

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Tim

Eloquently put. PB as you say is a very good course - just not as "great" as some others I saw in the USA and the rest of my travels.

Jim Nugent

Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2010, 01:15:05 AM »
When I hear a guy like Jack Niklaus say that if if he had only one play left that it would be at Pebble that goes a long way for me.  He aint just sayin it because he's won there as he's won everywhere...

The funny thing about that is that Jack basically never plays golf anymore.  Only when required at course openings, as I understand it.  He just doesn't like it much without the competition. 

So I  believe we need to consider Jack's statements about golf courses through that prism:  he was/is a competitive golfer.   

Carl Nichols

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The contrast between current #7 and the picture of old #7 is quite interesting.  I wonder if they've ever contemplated bringing the more "dunesy" look back -- or if they even could.

Simon Holt

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Great pics Kevin.

When I was a kid I caddied for somene who has become a very good friend.  I have visited the Penninsula 3 times and never played PB.  Dont get me wrong I would love to but he just wont let me and I wont..ok, cant pay the $500!

He has taken my onto Spy which i thought was good and probably one of the harder courses I have played.  In relation to the others kind of like the Jubilee in its status in St. A.

He also managed to get me on CPC which I will be forever grateful for.  You know who you are big guy!  Legend.

My point being if someone who lived there and worked in golf recommends a couple of courses in the same area over PB can it be 'all that?'  From what I have seen I would have to still say yes - who cant be sold by all that cobalt ocean and contrasting bunkering and fairways?

Do you think some of the detractors have an axe to grind due to the price?  I'm on the fence so thats a completely open question.

Oh, and I agree on 17.  It doesnt do it for me either.

My only genuine gripe- links is not green!!  I would love to see them turn the sprinklers off 2 weeks before the US Open and see the ball react like it should on fairways like 9.  12 under...I think not.

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Tom Huckaby

Call Pebble Beach not as great as any Kevin mentioned, and that's no huge statement... those are among the very cream of the crop of courses in our country.

Say it doesn't belong in top 50, 100, whatever (as some have) and that is Pebble-bashing.

So it's all a matter of degree.

I personally do put it quite near the top - certainly higher than Kevin or Tim Bert would - but heck, it's all personal preference.  I can live with it being on a par with or below the ones he mentioned. To each his own.

TH


Tim Bert

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Tom

I think we agree here even though we personally would place Pebble in a different spot. To say Pebble isn't top 100 US or world is pretty crazy. The stretch of 4 to 10 alone is so off the charts good that even if you buy into the notion that the inland holes aren't good you have to put it up there.

To say that it isn't top 10 or even 25 to me is more of a matter of personal preference and not bashing.

Tom Huckaby

Tom

I think we agree here even though we personally would place Pebble in a different spot. To say Pebble isn't top 100 US or world is pretty crazy. The stretch of 4 to 10 alone is so off the charts good that even if you buy into the notion that the inland holes aren't good you have to put it up there.

To say that it isn't top 10 or even 25 to me is more of a matter of personal preference and not bashing.

Exactly.  However get it down toward 25 and one start's to question the standards.   ;D

Tim Leahy

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Jack Nicklaus reiterated his feelings(and mine) again this weekend when he said "If I have one round left to play it would be on Pebble Beach." I have't played Cypress Pt yet but given that same question I would still say Pebble even if it meant never playing Cypress.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2010, 07:29:54 PM »
Monterey Peninsula Country Club (MPCC) is a club whose two courses I must admit that I had not seen nor heard much about prior to being given the offer to see by a kind host whilst in the Monterey region.

Most of the talk of the Monterey golf courses abroad - from my experience at least - centre primarily around Cypress Point, Pebble Beach and then to a lesser extent: Spyglass Hill. I was in for a pleasant surprise with regard to MPCC - it is every bit as good (if not better ?) than Spyglass Hill IMO - particularly for its “playability” aspect.

If I have my history right – MP Dunes course was laid out originally by Raynor and completed by Hunter. Rees Jones then did alterations in the late 1990’s. The MP Shore course was laid out originally by Baldock in the 1960’s and redeveloped by Mike Strantz in 2003. The layouts are somewhat similar in that they start and end in the high woodland areas of the property but the Shore has more holes along the exposed ocean area of land.

The topography changes at the start and end of each course are amazing contrasts and its interesting how one traverses from atop the hillside down to the dunes only to then climb back to the clubhouse to finish - one could keep very fit playing around the layouts at MPCC.

The AT&T PB Pro-Am was played at “The Shore” recently - replacing Poppy Hills on the rota and by all reports from what I have read was well received. No wonder – it’s a good course and well worth playing if one gets an opportunity to do so.

Holes I noted (Shore course):

6th = (P5: 548yds) is a double dogleg that swings significantly to the right and whose green is set nearby the 11th hole. The player has to avoid the fairway traps that are set on the insides of each of the doglegs. The green itself is by no means a push-over with at least three tiers in it and is quick to putt on.



9th = (P3: 224yds) is a very good and testing long P3. The green has a large entrance and also a wicked step in it. Any putt from the upper shelf to the lower one needs more than a prayer in an attempt to slow it down.



10th = (P5: 541yds) is another twisting and turning P5 that swings around to the left only to move slightly to the right at its very end. The green is situated in a bowl in the dunes and has a significant back to front slope in it and is fronted by a lone bunker.



11th = (P3: 181yds) is a very picturesque P3 that provides a wonderful vista of the layout and Monterey Peninsula coastline. Set atop a rocky outcrop one hits down to a kidney shaped green that is well protected by bunkers and has a significant middle ridge running through it.



12th = (P5: 599yds) finishes off a great 3-5-3-5 sequence of holes and has this time has only a small amount of directional movement in the fairway. With a creek traversing the fairway off the tee one has to be careful with their club choice. The hole narrows as one gets closer to the green and again it is quite tricky to putt on.



13th = (P4: 434yds) was one of my favourite holes on the course. I love how the hole narrows and the bunkering by Strantz is superb. The green also has a significant back to front slope and with CPC in the background what a wonderful frame it provides.



15th = (P4: 415yds) is another simple yet beautiful hole. This hole has a severe dogleg to the left off the tee and if one is brave and long enough they may try and take the trees and bunkers on. The penalty for coming up short or going left is severe. One can take the easier route out to the right but then has a longer and more difficult shot in as the green is well protected by bunkers from that angle.




The Shore course was a delight to play and I am surprised that its overall quality hasn’t been publicised moreso. Being a private club has something to do with it I am sure - but mechanisms like the AT&T hopefully are able to bring it more acclaim to which it richly deserves.

The stretch of holes from the 5th to the 16th were a blast and whilst I found the holes closer to the clubhouse less appealing they each had their own unique qualities and weren’t any less enjoyable to play.

After CPC and PB I think MPCC deserves to tussle Spyglass as the next best course to play if on the Monterey Peninsula. Certainly, Spyglass Hill is harder than MPCC though I’m not one that prescribes to the notion of “difficulty” being directly proportional to quality.  Strantz’s design was an absolute joy to play and I think the members at MPCC are very lucky indeed to have two quality courses to choose from.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 07:36:32 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Ash Towe

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2010, 08:38:16 PM »
Kevin,

I think this is a superb golf course, with the strength overall being in the par 3's and fives.  That is not to say anything negative about the par fours.

Overall a terrific course.  Spyglass is the bigger challenge but if you incorporate the setting then they are very close and it gets down to personal preferance.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2010, 01:48:39 AM »
Thanks Kevin, it brought a little sunshine into this winter.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2010, 04:06:39 PM »
Kevin,

I think this is a superb golf course, with the strength overall being in the par 3's and fives.  That is not to say anything negative about the par fours.

Ash

The P5's in particular were the real standout for mine - such an array of variety within them.

I had a look around the Dunes course while there (it was closed for coring) and think I may have preferred the Shore over it. I wonder what others think about the two ?

Tom Huckaby

Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2010, 04:39:11 PM »
Kevin,

I think this is a superb golf course, with the strength overall being in the par 3's and fives.  That is not to say anything negative about the par fours.

Ash

The P5's in particular were the real standout for mine - such an array of variety within them.

I had a look around the Dunes course while there (it was closed for coring) and think I may have preferred the Shore over it. I wonder what others think about the two ?

Both are very great golf courses, so it's really nitpicking.  But such is the coin of the realm in here.

Most do favor Shore, particularly those who have played each course but once (or not at all), or are Strantz devotees in general.

Those who have played each course many times seem to favor Dunes.  Ask Mr. Huntley his opinion.  For a long time it just seemed to be he and very few of us others favoring Dunes... but a groundswell has also occurred in recent times... more are seeing the light.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 04:54:32 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Ash Towe

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #67 on: March 10, 2010, 05:14:16 PM »
Tom,

I would love to have a look at the Dunes course.  Perhaps on my next trip to California ;D.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2010, 05:42:31 PM »
Is the Monterey Peninsular the strongest area on the planet for concentration of world class golf courses? If not where equals or betters it?
Cave Nil Vino

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #69 on: March 10, 2010, 06:18:14 PM »
Mark

Long Island (NGLA / Shinnecock / Sebonack and potentially Southampton ?) + the Heathbelt (Swinley / Berkshire / Sunningdale) + Sandbelt (RM + KH + Vic etc) perhaps are in the discussion as well ?


Mike Benham

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2010, 07:20:59 PM »

... into the back left bunker.

Silence.......

Mike B hands his club over - a short look is all he gives......


"And you still haven't had to rake them - cause I've done it for you......"



Look at it this way, I brought joy to an old man ... I put a smile on his face ... and gave him a story that he can tell countless times at the caddie shack ...

He should have tipped me ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

John Mayhugh

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2010, 11:08:02 PM »
Kevin,
I hope you have photos of MPCC Dunes as well.  I loved the course (probably prefer it to the Shore), but my camera settings were off and all my photos are way too small. 

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2010, 03:06:07 AM »
John

I have a few - I'll post them when I get the chance

Michael Taylor

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2010, 03:08:54 AM »
Kevin,

Also if you have any photos of the 3rd at PB, I'd like it if you could post them up.

Pup

Matt Schmidt

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (CP + MPCC update)
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2010, 10:10:30 AM »
I'm late to comment on CPC, but WOW!  Great pics - I think you really captured the feel/environment (but I'm guessing on that because I haven't played it).  Also great shots of MPCC.  Thanks for posting them.

I wonder if you have back or hip pain though?  It seems your right leg is quite a bit shorter than your left...either that, or you need to pay more attention to the horizon when taking your pics!   :)  Sorry for the poor attempt at humor, you got some great shots of all the courses.

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