Does the groove change matter?

[Richard Choi]

Based on the scores being posted this week, this is yet another week where I see absolutely no impact from the groove rule change.

The whole point of this rule change was that hitting wedges from the rough would be so unpredictable, people would start hitting fewer drivers or start using spinnier balls. I see absolutely no such trend so far.

Perhaps folks on this board have some other data to show the impact of the groove change?

Was all the hullabaloo worth it for so little impact? Will we see any impact in regards to golf course architecture?

[jeffwarne]

Based on the scores being posted this week, this is yet another week where I see absolutely no impact from the groove rule change.

The whole point of this rule change was that hitting wedges from the rough would be so unpredictable, people would start hitting fewer drivers or start using spinnier balls. I see absolutely no such trend so far.

Perhaps folks on this board have some other data to show the impact of the groove change?

Was all the hullabaloo worth it for so little impact? Will we see any impact in regards to golf course architecture?

How could you possibly compare the data?

What if the winner hit every fairway?
What if the greens were better this year than last?
What if half the field was using legal grooves last year? (I was )
What if many players were using PING eye 2's form the late 80's?
but every time a player flies a green we hear it...
30 years ago Jack Nicklaus said he'd rather hit an 8 iron from the rough than a five iron from the fairway-the original bomb and gouger?

much ado about nothing....still

[Pete Lavallee]

Richard,

How do you know what percentage of players have or have not switched to a spinnier ball? It is very possible that many have changed. I hear Titleist has numerous models not offered to the general public. The problem is it is very difficult for laymen without inside info to quantify their impact.

[Jason Topp]

I know the statistics have not demonstrated an impact but it does seem that the tour players are hitting more fliers this year.

Driving distance is down 6 yards but there has been a lot of wet weather.

[Garland Bayley]

I would not expect score to change much. The thing they are trying to affect is the driving distance. How is it going? I saw that one commentator said that they will not be playing where rough will be enough a factor to start seeing a difference until they get to Florida.

[Matthew Petersen]

Don't know about previous weeks, but this week there is no penalty for being in the rough at all. It's so short that it could be mistaken for fairway at some munis.

[jeffwarne]

I know the statistics have not demonstrated an impact but it does seem that the tour players are hitting more fliers this year.

Driving distance is down 6 yards but there has been a lot of wet weather.

Driving distance is down 6 yards compared to last year at the same events?
or driving distance so far is 6 yards lower than last years average for the year?

[Gary Slatter]

they haven't played in any rough yet!

[Wade Whitehead]

Based on the scores being posted this week, this is yet another week where I see absolutely no impact from the groove rule change.

The whole point of this rule change was that hitting wedges from the rough would be so unpredictable, people would start hitting fewer drivers or start using spinnier balls. I see absolutely no such trend so far.

Perhaps folks on this board have some other data to show the impact of the groove change?

Was all the hullabaloo worth it for so little impact? Will we see any impact in regards to golf course architecture?

14 at Pebble provided a great peek at the difference the new grooves will make.

As Gary states, we haven't seen the Tour play a golf course with any rough yet.  Once they do, we'll see a difference.

Of course, we only see the leaders on television.  They're hitting good shots, usually from the fairway.  Viewers may be hard pressed to identify any difference, even once course setup starts to make a difference.

WW

[Jason Topp]

I know the statistics have not demonstrated an impact but it does seem that the tour players are hitting more fliers this year.

Driving distance is down 6 yards but there has been a lot of wet weather.

Driving distance is down 6 yards compared to last year at the same events?
or driving distance so far is 6 yards lower than last years average for the year?

Golfworld or Golfweek is running the stats each week and they compare through the same number of events.  Because the order of events has changed a little, the numbers could be skewed (in particular substitute Riviera for TPC Scottsdale).  I would think that the numbers will be reasonably comparable (other than weather) at the point the tour moves to Florida because the same western events will have been played both years.

[Jud_T]

Should be interesting come U.S. Open time....

[jeffwarne]

they haven't played in any rough yet!

I assume you mean the rough in these events has been light, or not as deep as other events to come.

I would assume light rough would make the most difference as the old grooves would've channeled the water/moisture of the light rough into the wider grooves and the new grooves wouldn't)i.e. the Augusta cut), whereas deep rough couldn't possibly matter what grooves you were using as long/large blades or particulary wiry or thick rough between the ball and the ball and clubface would render grooves irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I think the grooves of the last few years were a joke, I just think it's not really going to change a players' gameplan that much-it's not like he's aiming at the rough. And once in the rough, it's not like they can't judge (or deal with) the consequences of a flyer. Players were hitting good shots out of the rough before square grooves.

Years ago I used to say a player should play as aggressively as possible to max birdie chances-if he misses the cut so what.
59th place isn't where the real money is made.
I'd rather have a 1st, 3rd, and 5th then 10 straightconservatively   made cuts.

[Richard Choi]

I would agree with Jeff on this issue. If you have US Open type condition, no grooves are going to bail you out. I would also argue that we saw some healthy rough at Torrey Pines and the kikuyu at Riviera is no push over (as Johnny would point out).

I looked at some stats and comparing year to year (all I had was 2010 and 2008) per tournament, and I am not seeing any statistically meaningful changes. The only place where I see differences are where they changed venues.

I am afraid that when it is all said and done, USGA is going to come out looking pretty foolish on this issue. If the driving distance does not change and/or scores do not go up, this change would have been about nothing. And the next time they want to change equipment again (say a new ball limitation), they are going to have a steep uphill of skepticism.

[Garland Bayley]

Richard,

I really don't know why you keep trying to correlate scores to the wedge changes. Are you saying that Jack, Arnie, and the boys would have scored better with the deeper grooves?

[Richard Choi]

Garland, no, I don't think Jack, Arnie, and the boys would have scored better with the deeper grooves. I think statistically, it would have made virtually no difference.

But USGA seems to believe that the shallow grooves will make the players think twice about pulling out their drivers and bombing away. There is only two outcomes based on what USGA was claiming; either players would value fairway more and start hitting spinnier balls or use more fairway woods off the tee, which would result in shorter driving distances, OR you would see higher scores as the players keep on pounding their drivers but have a harder time scoring with their wedges from the rough.

From what is admittedly small samples, I am seeing neither of those outcomes.

[JESII]

I think the reality is that answer has to be no...because the grooves didn't matter so much to the rest of us anyway.

If we agree that the intention was to make short shots out of rough spin less so the player would use a ball that spins more, thereby shortening their driving distance...than what exactly would that effect?

Driving distances? Maybe, but by how much and so what?

Scoring? Maybe, but by how much and so what?

Creativity? How?



EDIT: homurously similar posts Richard...

[Garland Bayley]

...
Driving distances? Maybe, but by how much and so what?
...

According to Tom Paul reporting what the USGA told him, if the ball spins as much as the pre-ProV ball, then 25 yards or so.

[JESII]

Garland,

I doubt the USGA told him the actual impact to the players switching to the 'spinnier' balls will be 25 yards off the tee...but let's assume so. How much do you htink that impacts the willing score of a tournament like Scottsdale? How about how much it will impact the creativity of the players?

[Richard Choi]

It doesn't matter. The driving distance stat shows they are not using spinnier balls, or at least not something that will take yardage off their drive which was the whole point to begin with.

This is why it is so silly to try to fix something (driving distance) in a round about way (wedge groove). If they wanted to limit the distance, they should have modified the ball.

[Bill Rocco]

found this study done, " A study of the effect of Rough Height on Tour Player Performance using U- and V- grooved irons" - June 20, 2007

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:BXTOnrBnBOUJ:www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx%3Flinkidentifier%3Did%26itemid%3D10576+u+grooves+reduce+spin&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESifSDQCV4RaQNvELBHF3oIEyLBeKiB7EmmOv3nc_HJZdG23Hn6YcaJ8QbeNyyOm4LlA5GKVa-2qZI4KrYvCq6jcJBVsc4A92P9xI238FCXQwGkenDyRcecHp9fQzUhxa0fHkMlG&sig=AHIEtbSB_Q3jv4D8cTQhHIefj3h-Y7gFBQ