[Sean_A]

  Original is North Berwick I assume?

  Where was it firts copied?

  Shinny had one before NGLA?

  If so, did CBM copy Shinny or NB?

  Is it the most copied hole in golf?

  Does it matter if it is uphill, downhill or level? Which is better?

  Is 12 at Pebble Beach a Redan?

  Why the name Redan? Where did it come from?

  Why this hole? What makes it signifigant architecturally?

  Is it copied more in the US than GB&I?

  What top 100 courses have a Redan?

  Please Discuss.....

  ARG

So far as I know, NB's Redan is the original, but I wouldn't be surprised if isn't.  

It makes a huge difference if uphill or downhill.  Basically, if downhill, IT IS NOT REDAN, but a variation of the theme and it is this theme which I think has been copied to death on 3s, 4s and 5s.  

Redan was a fortress in the Crimean War.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redan

The hole is architecturally significant because it is one of the basic designs of good architecture and I do think its variations of have been used countless times - though I have to come across a true Redan other than at NB.  IMO, the hole must:

1. play slightly uphill
2. be essentially blind
3. have a green which humps in the middle and feeds down to a rear hole location on the side where the crux bunker is
4. be guarded by a seriously harsh bunker on the left crux of the green
5. the best miss is to the rear of the green thus rewarding bold play
6. have a landing short of the green which if can be used to access the flag on any part of the green

The concept of the Redan is perhaps the greatest architectural invention/mishap ever.  From this single hole so much of all other architecture can be developed that it makes the head spin.  It is no wonder CBM wanted a Redanish hole on all his courses.  


Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

1. play slightly uphill
2. be essentially blind
3. have a green which humps in the middle and feeds down to a rear hole location on the side where the crux bunker is
4. be guarded by a seriously harsh bunker on the left crux of the green
5. the best miss is to the rear of the green thus rewarding bold play
6. have a landing short of the green which if can be used to access the flag on any part of the green

Ciao

Sean,

By your definition, the 4th at National Golf Links of America is not a Redan.  From my understanding, 4 at NGLA is downhill and visible from the tee.  In fact, most MRB Redan holes would not qualify.  All three MRB I have played (Yeamans Hall, Fox Chapel, and Hackensack) have very visible greens.  The Redans at Yeamans and Hackensack are slightly downhill from the tee.  Do you agree that these holes are not Redans?

Additionally, from your definition, Reverse Redans are not Redans.  Do you concur?

A couple more Redan questions for everyone:

Must a Redan require a player to hit draw?  That is, are Redans only Redans for right-handers, and Reverse Redans only Redans for left-handers?

Is the 4th at Swinley Forest a Redan?  I tend think it is not a Redan, although a player can take use the land to the right of the green to feed the ball close to the hole in Redan fashion.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Jim...cool stuff/thread!

[TEPaul]

Seems to me the entire green surface of NB's redan is blind from the tee. Probably 75% of NGLA's is blind from the tee and about 85% of Piping Rock's (a relatively high redan to the tee) is blind from the tee. I don't recall any hump on NB's green and neither NGLA's nor Piping's has a hump in the middle-----they just run right to left and away and all three of them have a long green axis that is at quite an angle to the tee shot.

Perhaps the best hump on a redan green is Tillinghast's #2 at Somerset Hills where the front half or third of the green faces the tee and then from the green hump it turns sharply left and runs down and away.

They all are such a remarkable architectural and strategic concept really. On most all of them even though most players would prefer not to do it the safe play is often off the left back (or right back on a reverse redan). This is not really true of Piping's as over the left back drops down pretty substantially.

[Jaeger Kovich]

US Top 100's with Redan holes (at least the ones that I have seen)

Shinny
Quaker Ridge
Yale
Old Mac (soon enough)

others top 100s mentioned on this thread already

Piping Rock
Fishers Island
Somerset Hill
NGLA
Yeamans Hall
Carmargo (that makes 10{including OM}... I'm sure there are more)

[Eric Smith]

Anthony,

Good to see you at the game today.  Sorry my VOLS had to kick your Kats ass like that!!

I'm having a hard time trying to imagine you playing a redan very well with that cut shot of yours. (For sure it is a pretty good controlled slice, started out to the left of target).  Am I right in saying that it is difficult for you to access a redan green?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Good to see you at the game today.  Sorry my VOLS had to kick your Kats ass like that!!

I'm having a hard time trying to imagine you playing a redan very well with that cut shot of yours. (For sure it is a pretty good controlled slice, started out to the left of target).  Am I right in saying that it is difficult for you to access a redan green?

  I start it at the bunker then hope for the greaded straight shot.

  You should have been there the last 30 secounds of the game. I tried to get the Kentucky fans to do a GO BIG BLUE chant. THey refused so I said "Come on ...one for the road".......Priceless.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  Is 17 at Pacific Dunes a downhill redan?

  Anthony

[Mark Molyneux]

I always associated Alister Mackenzie with the redan because of his background in military camoflauge.

[TEPaul]

Nope, it wasn't originally Mackenzie but the actual story of how the redan at NB came to be named that is extant and a pretty interesting story of someone around the club at the time who'd been involved in the Crimean War.

Mackenzie's own developed ideas of military camouflage (trench camouflage) as applied to golf course architecture is clearly far more significant and even to this day fairly well misunderstood, unfortunately.

[Kevin Pallier]

US Top 100's with Redan holes (at least the ones that I have seen)

Shinny
Quaker Ridge
Yale
Old Mac (soon enough)

others top 100s mentioned on this thread already

Piping Rock
Fishers Island
Somerset Hill
NGLA
Yeamans Hall
Carmargo (that makes 10{including OM}... I'm sure there are more)

Jaeger

The "original was also in the last GM World Top100 I believe ? It remains the best I've seen though my memory required a little refresher course recently 

Of those you've seen in your list which is your favourite ?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Kevin -

I would have to say:

Yale would be #1 for me... down hill, great landscape, large green, I thought it fit in very well as far as timing in the round

#2 would be Quaker... very different from yale. shorter, level ground, small green, deeper bunkers, aesthetically one of my favorites of all time, biggest penalty for missing the green (especially right)

#3 would actually be not from a top 100 list, Knoll West... the definition of fortress, good luck from  the bunkers surrounding this green, its almost like hitting out of the left greenside bunkers at yale (crazy deep!)

#4 would be shinny... i watched a practice round in the 2004 open there from the tee, maybe, maybe 1 in 40 players was able to keep a ball on that green

old mac doesn't get ranked, when i saw it, it was mostly dirt, so its not really to give a proper opinion

[Bill_McBride]

I always associated Alister Mackenzie with the redan because of his background in military camoflauge.

No association whatsoever as far as I know!  His first course (Alwoodley) opened in 1907, long after the first Redan, and I don't think he ever designed a Redan hole - except maybe at Augusta National.

[Jim Nugent]

Sean,

By your definition, the 4th at National Golf Links of America is not a Redan.  From my understanding, 4 at NGLA is downhill and visible from the tee. 

That question came up a few years ago here.  IIRC, someone (Doak?) looked at topo maps and found the hole is slightly uphill.  I also recall others on the board saying they don't know how close to the pin their tee shot ends up.  Which suggests at least semi-blind to me. 

[Steve Lapper]

Kevin -

I would have to say:

Yale would be #1 for me... down hill, great landscape, large green, I thought it fit in very well as far as timing in the round

#2 would be Quaker... very different from yale. shorter, level ground, small green, deeper bunkers, aesthetically one of my favorites of all time, biggest penalty for missing the green (especially right)

#3 would actually be not from a top 100 list, Knoll West... the definition of fortress, good luck from  the bunkers surrounding this green, its almost like hitting out of the left greenside bunkers at yale (crazy deep!)

#4 would be shinny... i watched a practice round in the 2004 open there from the tee, maybe, maybe 1 in 40 players was able to keep a ball on that green

old mac doesn't get ranked, when i saw it, it was mostly dirt, so its not really to give a proper opinion

Jaeger,

    While we all enjoy your fondness for Quaker Ridge (where i grew up playing and caddying and still enjoy several times a year) , unfortunately it's a gross misrepresentation to believe that it has a real Redan hole. I believe you are referring to #9 (and if it's 10 or 13 that's even more absurd?). Both greens have significant areas that feed balls away from any semblance of a traditional high-right shoulder (and or small collection at front right). Tilly, and I believe Phil Young or Rick Wolff would both concur, ceased trying to template holes before finishing the likes of QR or WF.

   His example at #2 in Somerset Hills is by and far the strongest of Tilly's Redan constructs. There, like Shinny, Yale, Yeamans, or NGLA, the fortress-like qualities of a real redan are quite evident. It is simply far too great a stretch of the imagination to believe that QR has anything near these features on any green complex on the property!


S


PS.....If you still believe #9 is a Redan, then please explain to me how my 8 iron(with a little draw) stuck 12 feet to the right just pin high to a front left stick this past summer, or if you will, ask your 5X club champion (my long time friend and godfather to my oldest daughter) if he believes there is a Redan there.

[Mike Policano]

The Redan at Somerset Hills, No. 2 is a very strong version of the original.  The original has raised bunkers maybe 120 yards off the tee which somewhat obscure the view of the right side of the green.  After the bunkers is a valley leading to a deceptively steep incline to the front of the green.  There is the oft copied deep bunker to the front left, but the original also has a steep drop-off to the right to a bunker.  This last feature doesn't appear to have been copied too often.

The SH Redan copies the features of the original better than most other versions.  I defer however to Mike Robin and Tom Doak who have probably forgotten more about the Redan than I will ever know.

Cheers

[Niall C]

I always associated Alister Mackenzie with the redan because of his background in military camoflauge.

No association whatsoever as far as I know!  His first course (Alwoodley) opened in 1907, long after the first Redan, and I don't think he ever designed a Redan hole - except maybe at Augusta National.

Bill

I know MacKenzies favourite short hole and one he built a number of times was no. 11 at St Andrews however I think he built a Redan at Pollok in Glasgow when he did a redesign. I'll need to check my notes.

Niall

[TEPaul]

Other than Macdonald/Raynor (and perhaps Banks) what other golf architects of the Golden Age clearly used the redan in their architectural toolbox?

Off the top of my head at the moment I can only think of:

1. Flynn (Wilson?)
2. Tillinghast
3. Crump (with #3 at PV?)?


Personally, with good redans I like to see at least some fairway/approach "kicker" and the more the better. Merion's #3 and PV's #3 doesn't have that; matter of fact either does Tilly's excellent Somerset Hills redan. For that matter either do most of Flynn's.

[JNC Lyon]

Other than Macdonald/Raynor (and perhaps Banks) what other golf architects of the Golden Age clearly used the redan in their architectural toolbox?

Off the top of my head at the moment I can only think of:

1. Flynn (Wilson?)
2. Tillinghast
3. Crump (with #3 at PV?)?


Personally, with good redans I like to see at least some fairway/approach "kicker" and the more the better. Merion's #3 and PV's #3 doesn't have that; matter of fact either does Tilly's excellent Somerset Hills redan. For that matter either do most of Flynn's.

One that comes to mind is George Thomas, with his 4th at Riveria and 11th at Los Angeles North.  Is it not interesting that these holes have survived in their original form on courses where many holes have been changed?

[Michael Rossi]

Other than Macdonald/Raynor (and perhaps Banks) what other golf architects of the Golden Age clearly used the redan in their architectural toolbox?

Off the top of my head at the moment I can only think of:

1. Flynn (Wilson?)
2. Tillinghast
3. Crump (with #3 at PV?)?


Personally, with good redans I like to see at least some fairway/approach "kicker" and the more the better. Merion's #3 and PV's #3 doesn't have that; matter of fact either does Tilly's excellent Somerset Hills redan. For that matter either do most of Flynn's.

TEPaul

If good redans have the "kicker" short cut approach and the holes yo listed do not, what hole has an example of the kicker approach that you feel is great?

[Mac Plumart]

So, I am reading this thread and thinking about it.  Would I be correct to assume that the term Redan is way overused.  I hear time and time again that hole x, y, or z is a Redan, but after reading your definitions, in fact, most of these so-called Redans are not.

For instance, when I was playing this one I was told it was a Redan.  Immediately I thought, no it isn't.  However maybe I am wrong...is it a Redan?



The first Redan that I knew/thought I played was the 10th at Lookout Mountain.  Par 3, bunker engulfing the entire front of the green, green slants front to back and tilted right to left, and bunker behind the green. 

[TEPaul]

Mac:

In my book the hole in that photo above should be called a redan.

[JNC Lyon]

Mac,

Here's my take on the 14th at the Ocean Course:

It is a great par three.  It is a Redan, or at least it has some of the characteristics of a Redan.  However, it is not a great Redan.  14 does not allow the player hit a low sweeping draw and bounce the ball into the green.  The bunker short right of the green sends balls away from the green rather than onto the green.  A low draw that lands on the green will scoot over the back of the green.  If anything, the hole calls for a high cut into the slope to hold the green.

Nevertheless, I love this par three.  I think the green site is brilliant.  A player can leave the ball short of the green and make an easy four.  Miss anywhere else, the golfer is staring a double in the face.  It takes a very good tee shot to make a three.

The hole fits in perfectly on one of the most testing courses in the world.  Is it a great Redan though? I do not think so.

[Carlyle Rood]

I just wanted to post some photos of the original Redan to facilitate the discussion.  I know if you've been to my old website in the last year or so, you're probably disappointed to see that many of the photos are missing.  Believe it or not, I actually spent a few weeks cleaning up about a hundred digital images in the hopes of sharing the photos again.  That was probably in November 2008.  I just haven't been able to find time to finish the project.  (And I probably shouldn't make any promises going forward, either.)  In any event, I do have some photos of North Berwick's Redan (15th):

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
I think it gets confusing at times because the 'names' given to some prominent holes are used as a shorthand description of other holes that may have none, some, many or most of the same parts as the original.

There have been some interesting and informative discussions on just how much of an original needs to be incorporated into a modern version so it can realistically use the 'name' of its forebear.

'Alps' discussions have always been a favorite of mine, but in the future I am going to shy away from discussing the Biarritz. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()