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Rick Sides

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #325 on: March 11, 2010, 07:21:05 PM »
Pat,
I can tell you the picture is pre 1920 because it's the same photo that appears in Colt's 1920 book Essays on Golf Course Architecture/i]

TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #326 on: March 11, 2010, 07:25:20 PM »
Joe:

That photo is the same one as the first photo on Post #3.

Strohmeyer was a very prolific and pretty famous photographer who did a lot of golf photography (he did a whole course series of photographs for Flynn's Cascades course at the Homestead). If that photo was in Colt's book it was probably from the photographic scrapbook that Crump sent Colt perhaps in 1914 or 1915. It's a beautifully bound scrapbook and it's now in the USGA Museum/Library.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 07:30:39 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #327 on: March 11, 2010, 07:34:14 PM »
"Does anyone know what those sand mounds are in back of the green? Those are curious. Are those stock piles?"

Brad:

I think they are. The same basic to contours of those sand mounds shows up on the earliest photo of the 17th hole from the fairway. They are just to the left of the 17th green.

I think that fill was generated from cutting down below natural grade for the bunkers of the 10th but I think the majority of it came from a massive cut that created the large swale in front of the 10th green. The instructions on Colt's hole drawing seems to indicate they cut down for #10's surrounding bunkers. And I think they must have been trying to get the right to left sheet flow across the ridge the tenth hole is on directed in there. Obviously they used some of the cut's fill to create the back tee on #18.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 07:41:38 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #328 on: March 11, 2010, 08:11:34 PM »
from looking at pat's picture in his previous post, and comparing it to tommc's most recent picture and post....it's apparent that the DA was added between the time frame of the two.

I haven't checked in on this thread of late....but what am i missing? has the DA bunker's construction time frame been resolved? do we know who was responsible for it's addition?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #329 on: March 11, 2010, 09:40:17 PM »
upon further reflection of the photos, it seems to me that the turf from the excavation of the DA could have been shifted to the left....something I would probably due....to shore up the more massive bunker on the left on the left corner....all the other differences seem to be a result of continued grow in.

are we still discussing this, or am I in a little vacuum of my own?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mac Plumart

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #330 on: March 11, 2010, 09:56:08 PM »
Paul...

Nope...we haven't solved the puzzle and no you are not in a vaccum.  I am sure the gurus will be eager to hear your thoughts and continue to work to get to the bottom of this.

Cool stuff, I think.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #331 on: March 11, 2010, 10:21:09 PM »
"upon further reflection of the photos, it seems to me that the turf from the excavation of the DA could have been shifted to the left....something I would probably due....to shore up the more massive bunker on the left on the left corner....all the other differences seem to be a result of continued grow in."



Hmmm, very interesting theory. One thing is certain----eg that high vertical sand flashed face of the front bunker on the left (in the first photo of the 10th hole without the DA) was incredibly unstable and not prone to lasting in that configuration for even a year.

Also notice that in one of the next photos in the chronoligal progression a huge mound of sand with turf on it was at the base of that bunker. To me there is only one logical reason for that----it slide right down off that vertical face of the left front bunker!


TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #332 on: March 12, 2010, 12:07:30 PM »
"I haven't checked in on this thread of late....but what am i missing? has the DA bunker's construction time frame been resolved? do we know who was responsible for it's addition?"


Paul:

Not yet, even if some evidence has been recently found and explained that might point to a particular timespan and person. But basically the over-all timeline is this:

1. If some real visual evidence of the conception and/or appearance of the DA predates Jan. 1918 it is fairly certain the conception and creation of the DA would be Crump.

2. If the foregoing occured after that date the list of potential candidates would necessarily grow.



However, some things on this thread should be clarified and altered for the sake of accuracy, at this point anyway. An example of that is this remark on Post #69 from Tom MacWood which is the entire extent of that post:


He said:
"CH Alison is responsible for the bunker, and a number of other changes."



That might look to some casual observer and reader as a statement of fact; it isn't, at least part of it isn't. It is merely conjecture and speculation regarding the conception and creation of the DA. It is true and provable that Alison was responsible for a number of other changes to Pine Valley but it is not provable, at this point, that he was responsible for the DA.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 12:17:29 PM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #333 on: March 12, 2010, 03:48:04 PM »
Joe:

That photo is the same one as the first photo on Post #3.

Strohmeyer was a very prolific and pretty famous photographer who did a lot of golf photography (he did a whole course series of photographs for Flynn's Cascades course at the Homestead). If that photo was in Colt's book it was probably from the photographic scrapbook that Crump sent Colt perhaps in 1914 or 1915. It's a beautifully bound scrapbook and it's now in the USGA Museum/Library.

I have a series of great Strohmeyer photos of Pine Valley, but I've given up on posting any photos to this site. The photos are pretty rough shape because they were clipped from an original magazine and they are almost 100 years old. If someone messages me their e-mail I'll scan them and send them along to be posted.

Mike Cirba

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #334 on: March 12, 2010, 03:53:17 PM »
Brad

Please send them.

I'd be happy to post for you.

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #335 on: March 13, 2010, 07:00:47 AM »
I wonder if the term "Devil's Asshole" came from a bunker on the 14th hole on the Old Course that was once a small pot bunker called the "Devil's Kitchen?"

Mike Cirba

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #336 on: March 13, 2010, 07:38:39 AM »
There is a nice pic of the present day 10th in this week's GolfWeek magazine, as well as on the GolfWeek website.

TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #337 on: March 16, 2010, 12:02:42 AM »
Something tells me there is something out there that will positively establish the DA as before Crump or just after Crump and visually. ;) I think we've gotten pretty warm on that timeline to date on here with other kinds of evidence but nothing completely positive yet that everyone would agree on.

But for an architectural/historical/analytical learning experience classroom type thing this thread has been excellent. With this kind of architectural/historical analysis though it's a bit like that infamous three mile run all USMC boots have to go on with all their gear in a set amount of time at Parris Island----the deal is you can only go as fast as your slowest men and if they are too slow as the likes of Mucci and MacWood are on this thread and subject and others like it, you just pick them up and carry them over the finish-line even if they tend to yell and scream and claim they somehow managed it on their own! ;)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 12:10:06 AM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #338 on: November 19, 2010, 05:48:52 PM »
Just came across this picture of number P.V. #10 from 1941.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 05:57:44 PM by Bradley Anderson »

TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #339 on: November 19, 2010, 06:23:26 PM »
Bradley:

That one's significant because you can see that old short grass area where balls could easily run off the right front and down. One can also pick up the significant chances to the front and left bunker compared to the original photo which shows it flashed all the way up. That was way too unstable and couldn't last. It looks on the original photo that there was more green originally on the left front. It apparently collapsed as did the fronting bunkering on #2 and #18. I believe it was Flynn who grassed all three of them down.

Rick Sides

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #340 on: November 19, 2010, 06:31:34 PM »
Brad,
Do you have any other Pine Valley photo from that era?

Ian Andrew

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #341 on: November 19, 2010, 06:37:37 PM »
I see a bunker


TEPaul

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #342 on: November 19, 2010, 06:48:30 PM »
Ian:

It could be but it's more likely longish grass at the end of that semi-ridge before you walk down and then up onto the green. I'm afraid they had some pretty significant stabilization issues in the beginning in the valley before that green and around to its left. If you think about it there is a lot of sheet flow that could come from both the front right of that green and around that bunkering on the left. Both originally were like some pretty fair sized funnels and it was all sand.

In the late 1920s they had a massive project they called "stabilizing the course" or holding the course together. They did a ton of terracing and vegetating it. They also planted a lot of trees in various areas for the same purpose. The most signficant areas were in the front of this green, the hillside on the left of 18 and on that massive sand area on #6. The fronts of #2, #10 and #18 also weren't holding because they were all sand flashed way up.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 06:57:48 PM by TEPaul »

Ian Andrew

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #343 on: November 19, 2010, 06:51:55 PM »
I looked again - it's a perfect oval - I see a bunker.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #344 on: November 19, 2010, 08:10:04 PM »
I found a nice picture from 1923 with the DA in it. I'm having a hard time posting it, but I'll put it up tomorrow.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 08:13:38 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #345 on: November 20, 2010, 07:26:12 AM »
From the USGA Instructive Golf Hole Series August 1923






« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:39:01 AM by Bradley Anderson »

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #346 on: November 20, 2010, 07:37:47 AM »
1941 or thereabouts


Niall C

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #347 on: November 20, 2010, 07:44:21 AM »
I looked again - it's a perfect oval - I see a bunker.

I agree, the dark area looks like shade to me, similar to the other bunkers.

Niall

Bradley Anderson

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Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #348 on: November 20, 2010, 07:47:34 AM »


The left photo is 1941, the right side is from 1923. Note how the mowing lines were changed to help the ball roll off the green towards the DA. But it looks like they may have even modified the contours of the putting surface?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:56:09 AM by Bradley Anderson »

Kyle Harris

Re: What's missing in this photograph? Why?
« Reply #349 on: November 20, 2010, 08:25:25 AM »
Brad:

Could the difference in color be attributed to different shadows?

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