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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2010, 08:45:50 AM »
JC,

I think the list of potential candidates provided is a reasonable one to start with.

In light of the social, business and golf stature of those involved with the creation of Seminole, it's unlikely, though possible, that unknowns were brought in to tender a design.

David Moriarty's research that found the ship logs chronicling Crump's overseas travels was a marvelous bit of research, one disproving a long held myth.

David and Tom MacWood might be able to pinpoint whom amongst the premier architects was in South Florida from the time the land was purchased until Ross was commissioned.

But, there's another possibility.
That possibility is that there was NO other architect commissioned or consulted with, and that Ross was the only architect involved with the project.

Perhaps the idea to level the western ridge was an internal one, springing from the mind of a founder or interested party or from one of Ross's Associates like Walter Johnson, Walter Hatch or J.B. McGovern.

As you know, the western ridge is a massive feature running the entire length of the property on its western border.
Leveling that ridge would be an enormous undertaking, in time, manpower and money.
In addition, that ridge provides wonderful views to the east, views that a prudent person would want preserved.
"The Story of Seminole" indicates that E.F. Hutton wanted to preserve those views, ergo, the ridge, and, he was THE man.

While there are references to routing sketches by the two anonymous architects, I wonder if they ever existed.
If they can't be identified or described, then how does the author know of their existance ?

It may be one of those unsolved mysteries unless Dr's Moriarty and MacWood are brought in. ;D

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2010, 03:12:27 PM »
"I call thread jack."


Well then, you started the thread, JC, and you should be able to call it yours so just bring the discussion back to where you think you want it to be.

In my opinion, some of the best of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is some of the side-roads and different avenues that contributors go down on various threads. To me, that is essentially what any imaginative investigative process is all about----various tangential avenues of inquiry. Over the years I've found some of the most important and relevent material in some of the most unlikely places and avenues of investigations which when you look back on it can sometimes be pretty far from the original subject's perspective or focus.

If you're interested I'll give you one or a few of the best examples of that I've ever known in all my time with this kind of stuff.

If I edited my post to have a smiley face afterwards would that help? ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2010, 03:13:25 PM »
Great points, Pat.

I too am hoping Mr. Macwood sees this so he might lend his research efforts.  In the mean time, do you or anyone know of any "Langford" experts?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2010, 04:42:16 PM »
"David Moriarty's research that found the ship logs chronicling Crump's overseas travels was a marvelous bit of research, one disproving a long held myth."


Pat:

It makes sense you championed that essay as that remark of yours is about as accurate as his essay was. Wilson, Crump, Crump, Wilson, whatever, you fellas probably think they're interchangeable. With the mindset you guys have----eg "Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE is it?" I guess it's not impossible Crump did Merion and Wilson did Pine Valley. By the way, what's the name of that guy who's never been to Seminole but nevertheless swears it's basically flat? ;)


JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2010, 07:42:02 AM »
Bump because I see macwood back on the board.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2010, 12:27:09 PM »
"David Moriarty's research that found the ship logs chronicling Crump's overseas travels was a marvelous bit of research, one disproving a long held myth."


Pat:

It makes sense you championed that essay as that remark of yours is about as accurate as his essay was. Wilson, Crump, Crump, Wilson, whatever, you fellas probably think they're interchangeable. With the mindset you guys have----eg "Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE is it?" I guess it's not impossible Crump did Merion and Wilson did Pine Valley. By the way, what's the name of that guy who's never been to Seminole but nevertheless swears it's basically flat? ;)

My reference to "Crump" was a tyop, I meant "Wilson".
But, the point is that Moriarty's research went into great detail, reviewing ship manifests to pinpoint when Wilson travled abroad.
David's discovery was contrary to the "myth" that surrounded Merion and its alleged roots in the great holes of the UK.
David's discovery of the "Alps" 10 hole was also valuable.
Likewise MacWood's discovery about Crump's death put to bed another myth.

Would you have prefered for those myths to have been perpetuated, or for Moriarty's and MacWood's research to have discovered the truth, thus demolishing those myths ?

While I'm a sentimentalist, I'd prefer that the truth be known.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 06:39:04 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2010, 02:00:52 PM »
Pat:

That last post is just so apropos of you and your endlessly bizarre logic, responses and multi-colored text. Just like most all your logic, responses, deflective argumentations, that text is virtually unreadable in its extraordinary yellowness, but for you it's appropriately consistent with all the rest. ;)

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2010, 02:06:48 PM »
Pat:

I find if I highlight that crazy yellow color it turns to blue, and I can read it.

Are you sure you really want me to answer the question you asked in that yellow text? I've answered them all before on this website but if you really want me to answer them again and you really want my opinions on those points and questions you asked I'll be glad to do it. I guess if I keep answering them one of these days there could be SOME hope you might figure some of this out but I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it. ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 12:25:04 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2010, 12:28:40 PM »
Patrick:

Again, you asked me a question in that wild yellow text above. I asked you if you really do want an answer to that question, but you didn't respond. I believe I can understand why. I suppose that question of yours in the yellow text was just a rhetorical question, huh? If so, believe me, I think I can understand why you'd prefer not to have an answer to it.  

It's actually a very good question, as are the accurate answers ;), historically and otherwise, although it seems you're never particularly interested in considering those accurate answers. It seems just the rhetorical questions are all that suit you.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:02:31 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2010, 09:45:36 PM »

"David Moriarty's research that found the ship logs chronicling Crump's overseas travels was a marvelous bit of research, one disproving a long held myth."

Pat:

It makes sense you championed that essay as that remark of yours is about as accurate as his essay was. Wilson, Crump, Crump, Wilson, whatever, you fellas probably think they're interchangeable. With the mindset you guys have----eg "Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE is it?" I guess it's not impossible Crump did Merion and Wilson did Pine Valley.

By the way, what's the name of that guy who's never been to Seminole but nevertheless swears it's basically flat? ;)


Tom MacWood made the mistake of relying on an excerpt from a solitary article without referencing any other source material, thus, his conclusion that Seminole was flat was incorrect, but that doesn't mean that all of the other research he performed was invalid.





My reference to "Crump" was a tyop, I meant "Wilson".
But, the point is that Moriarty's research went into great detail, reviewing ship manifests to pinpoint when Wilson travled abroad.
David's discovery was contrary to the "myth" that surrounded Merion and its alleged roots in the great holes of the UK.
David's discovery of the "Alps" 10 hole was also valuable.
Likewise MacWood's discovery about Crump's death put to bed another myth.

Would you have prefered for those myths to have been perpetuated, or for Moriarty's and MacWood's research to have discovered the truth, thus demolishing those myths ?

While I'm a sentimentalist, I'd prefer that the truth be known.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2010, 09:54:45 PM »
Patrick:

Again, you asked me a question in that wild yellow text above. I asked you if you really do want an answer to that question, but you didn't respond. I believe I can understand why. I suppose that question of yours in the yellow text was just a rhetorical question, huh? If so, believe me, I think I can understand why you'd prefer not to have an answer to it.  

It's actually a very good question, as are the accurate answers ;), historically and otherwise, although it seems you're never particularly interested in considering those accurate answers. It seems just the rhetorical questions are all that suit you.


I changed the yellow to green since I can only read the yellow when I'm jaundiced.

Feel free to answer any question you please

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2010, 09:30:10 AM »
"Feel free to answer any question you please."


Patrick:

Very good, here’s your question:

“Would you have prefered for those myths to have been perpetuated, or for Moriarty's and MacWood's research to have discovered the truth, thus demolishing those myths ?”



First, to do the details involved in that question the justice they deserve we should make clear what specifically those “myths” were about and what exactly the truth discovered was or is specifically about involved in the research of Moriarty and MacWood.

Would you care to try to tell me what you think those details of those specific myths were about and what specifically you think the discovery of the truth of them actually proved; particularly as it might relate to something to do with the histories of the architecture of the courses involved?

I certainly will admit and stipulate that both myths and the discovery of the truth behind them were very interesting regarding both architects, specifically the truth of the travel date of one and the truth behind the death of the other, and in and of itself I find that interesting in some ways.

What I don't see, however, is what any of it really had to do with what Wilson and Crump did with their golf architecture and projects and the previously recorded histories of that architecture and those architects' projects or what exactly Moriarty and MacWood discovered about that; specifically including Merion East and Pine Valley, two of the most significant courses in the world

After that I would be glad to tell you what I would’ve preferred.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 09:49:33 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2010, 09:42:43 AM »
TEPaul,

The circumstances and/or cause of death of Crump.

The date of Wilson's trip abroad as it relates to the alleged copying/iterations of holes in the UK influencing Merion as a result of his trip.

The 10th hole at Merion as originally designed and built being an "Alps" hole

Please, stick to these three issues.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2010, 09:51:16 AM »
Pat:

Very good, I'll take those three issues one at a time.

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2010, 10:03:22 AM »
How about on a thread not titled: Seminole Golf Club?  :o
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2010, 10:11:04 AM »
Patrick,

You're right.
TEPaul, please respond in a new thread you can create.
As to your question about Wilson and Merion's architecture,
David debunked the myth that Merion's holes/architecture/features had their roots in the courses in the UK that Wilson had studied on his trip abroad.  We now know that that was a myth, a fraud that continues to be perpetuated.
Moriarty proved that there was NO direct architectural connection between Merion and the courses of the UK through Wilson's hand.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2010, 01:34:14 PM »
"You're right.
TEPaul, please respond in a new thread you can create."s


Pat:

In that case, on the first point, I'll just send the response to you via IM or email and you can start a new thread with it if you want to.

As to where to answer the last four lines of your last post (#65) and your middle point in post #62 I'll consider where to answer that----eg on here or in an IM or email to you but on your last point:

"The 10th hole at Merion as originally designed and built being an "Alps" hole."

If you think Moriarty discovered that or any significance to it you are even more of an idiot and far more misinformed about the architectural history of Merion and who knew what and when in and around Merion than I have already suspected you are.


« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 01:45:10 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2010, 10:11:42 PM »
"You're right.
TEPaul, please respond in a new thread you can create."s


Pat:

In that case, on the first point, I'll just send the response to you via IM or email and you can start a new thread with it if you want to.

As to where to answer the last four lines of your last post (#65) and your middle point in post #62 I'll consider where to answer that----eg on here or in an IM or email to you but on your last point:

"The 10th hole at Merion as originally designed and built being an "Alps" hole."

If you think Moriarty discovered that or any significance to it you are even more of an idiot and far more misinformed about the architectural history of Merion and who knew what and when in and around Merion than I have already suspected you are.


TEPaul,

I recall you, Wayno, Mike Cirba, myself and others arguing against Moriarty and MacWood on that issue.
You may recall that Wayno went out and measured the hole, crossed the road, etc. etc..
I changed my position and agreed with Dave and Tom after they presented evidence, including photographic evidence, that would lead a prudent man to accept their position.

If you want to argue that you, Wayno, Mike Cirba and others knew the 10th hole at Merion was an Alps all along, that's OK, but, it's also revisionist history.


TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2010, 10:24:00 PM »
"If you want to argue that you, Wayno, Mike Cirba and others knew the 10th hole at Merion was an Alps all along, that's OK, but, it's also revisionist history."

Patrick:

What's revisionist history?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2010, 11:50:33 PM »
JC
Unfortunately I don't have the proof your looking for, but I've really enjoyed this thread and the info you've uncovered. I agree with those who say Flynn and Langford are the most likely candidates, and I'd throw in a possible 3rd name Herbert Strong. He was well known in NY and very active in Florida (& Cuba), although mostly in northern Florida. He was also known to move some dirt, especially at the Ponte Vedra C.

Langford spent a great deal of time in Palm Beach and was a member of the Old Guard. He also carried out a major redesign of the Everglades C. Some of the founders were connected to the Old Guard and Everglades. He could also move some dirt.

Flynn seems to be the most likely candidate IMO - he was so active in the area. Chris Dunphy who ran Seminole for decades, before Seminole ran Edward McLean's Friendship GC in DC. Flynn redesigned Friendship.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2010, 10:02:05 AM »
Another bit of info that may point to Flynn. When Seminole was in a state of disrepair after WWII, they called in Flynn's former associate Dick Wilson to restore the golf course. I also believe he made a few changes to the course over the years.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2010, 12:24:37 PM »
Tom MacWood,

There's an old aerial in the locker room at Seminole depicting Claude Harmon's record round, shot by shot.
While the round was shot in 1947, the aerial isn't dated, that I noticed.

When Claude Harmon shot the course record, # 18 was a fairly benign finishing hole with the tee not too far from the current 16th tee and the green where the current practice tee resides, next to the clubhouse.

In looking at that aerial, other than # 18, there don't appear to be many substantive changes to the golf course versus today's version.

What I've found out about playing Seminole, and I first started in the late 50's early 60's, is that there's not much room for improvement.  The course is spectacular as a membership course, and the varied winds make each day's play a new adventure.
Hence, I don't see it being tinkered with much, from the day it opened.

I do feel that Wilson's work on # 18 is a vast improvement, but, I don't see other holes than can be substantively improved, they're all outstanding in their current form.

Chris Dunphy was the first member of Seminole I ever met, unless the Stranahans were members.
He was an acquaintance of my dads.

I don't know whom else was considered for Seminole, and I even have my doubts that any outsiders were considered.  But, if there were outside "consultants", I'd have to lean toward a well connected, prominent architect of the time.

JC,

Did you receive your book ?

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2010, 03:08:50 PM »
Pat:

I completely agree with what you say about Seminole and Dick Wilson and what he did there that was of any significance---#18.

As far as the rest of the course ever being significantly changed in any way I tend to agree with you too even though I am really familiar with Pete Dye's different opinion on that and that he very well may have fairly first-hand knowledge of that. But he never claimed it was some other architect who made some significant changes to Ross's original greens.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2010, 04:42:03 PM »
I would agree that Flynn seems like a logical candidate with the exception that Flynn's track record later in his career was to have drawings for or leave some record of just about everywhere he was considered.  If he was contacted by Seminole, there should be some mention of it in Flynn's records if his track record is any indication. 

Tom MacWood brings up a good point with Herbert Strong.  He did Indian Hills in nearby Fort Pierce and was active in that neck of the woods. 

Does anyone think Charles "Steamshovel" Banks was considered?  He certainly wasn't afraid to move some dirt around and he had connections in the area through Raynor,  the Everglades Club, and the Palm Beach Winter Club. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2010, 06:12:56 PM »
Pat:

I completely agree with what you say about Seminole and Dick Wilson and what he did there that was of any significance---#18.

As far as the rest of the course ever being significantly changed in any way I tend to agree with you too even though I am really familiar with Pete Dye's different opinion on that and that he very well may have fairly first-hand knowledge of that. But he never claimed it was some other architect who made some significant changes to Ross's original greens.


TEPaul,

I have a problem accepting Pete's account.

When World War II broke out with America, Pete was 18 days removed from being 15 years of age.

Seminole was closed in 1943, 1944 and 1945, hence, it's reasonable to believe that the golf course wasn't renovated in those years.

When 1946 rolled around, Pete had just turned 20 six days earlier.
When 1947 rolled around, Pete had just turned 21 six days earlier.
I believe he may have been attending either Rollins or Stetson 

C&W date Wilson's work at Seminole in 1947.

Pete was in the insurance business in Indianapolis after college, although I don't know how soon after college.
He left the insurance business in 1959.

I believe that's when he first went into the design business with Alice.

I believe he first visited the UK in 1963.

So, looking at that time line, at what point in his life did he ascertain that the Ross greens at Seminole were redone ?

In 1935 when he was ten ?  1940 when he was 15 ?

Or, was he refering to Wilson's work ?

And, even then, how would he be infinitely familiar with Seminoles greens pre 1941 and immediately post 1947, when he had just turned 21 ?

If the time line doesn't fit, you can't commit ..... to that theory. ;D


So where would Pete obtain this information ?

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