Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Messix,

Raynor died in 1926, Seminole was crafted in 1929.

Raynor did Everglades in 1919, two years before Banks became associated with him.

Banks never produced a course in Florida on his own, neither an original nor a redesign.
And, not that they're 100 % accurate, but, C&W don't give him co-credit for any of Raynor's courses in Florida.

I don't believe that Banks was a viable candidate, but someone might discover evidence to the contrary

[TEPaul]

"If the time line doesn't fit, you can't commit ..... to that theory.  "


Pat:

What's the "timeline" to Pete's story and opinion that the Ross greens got screwed up? When did I mention a timeline? If you think I did show me where I mentioned some timeline.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"If the time line doesn't fit, you can't commit ..... to that theory.  "


Pat:

What's the "timeline" to Pete's story and opinion that the Ross greens got screwed up? When did I mention a timeline? If you think I did show me where I mentioned some timeline.

TEPaul,

Please reread my prior reply.

Perhaps you missed it, but, there's a timeline contained therein.

[Adam_Messix]

Pat--

I understand about Raynor's death, but Banks was associated with Raynor and if the Flynn/Wilson connection works, then what about Raynor and Banks?  I think Raynor still had friends at the Everglades and I'm sure they knew who Banks was.

You can use your argument about someone not working in an area in alot of cases, but there is the occasional exception....think Peninsula.  

My post was to add to the to the discussion because barring Seminole's archives having evidence AND some historian being able to get in there and read (highly unlikely), then any discussion about who a potential competeing architect is would be totally speculative.  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Please reread my prior reply.
Perhaps you missed it, but, there's a timeline contained therein."


Patrick:

Why reread your prior post? I know there's a timeline contained therein. Who's timeline is it? Yours?  How do you know your timeline has anything to do with what Pete Dye said about Seminole's greens being altered or when it may've happened?

[TEPaul]

I doubt the hiring of Dick Wilson to do some design work at Seminole after WW2 had anything to do with Wilson's former connection to Flynn. When Wilson did that work at Seminole he'd moved to Delray Beach many years before and hadn't worked for Flynn for maybe up to 15 years.

Dick Wilson became sort of the go-to guy for a whole group of those Seminole/Gulfstream people. Wilson did some redesigning of Ross's Gulfstream too. They all hung around together and I remember seeing Wilson around with those people in the early 1960s. Pete Dye's parents were around Delray alot with Wilson too. Some of them were my father, Jim Raymond (the man who drew Dagwood and Blondie), Stewart Iglehart, probably that area's biggest developer at the time. Stewart was a famous 10 goal polo player and perhaps the best rider American polo ever had. They all built Pine Tree together in Boynton Beach with Wilson as well.

[JC Jones]

I doubt the hiring of Dick Wilson to do some design work at Seminole after WW2 had anything to do with Wilson's former connection to Flynn. When Wilson did that work at Seminole he'd moved to Delray Beach many years before and hadn't worked for Flynn for maybe up to 15 years.

Dick Wilson became sort of the go-to guy for a whole group of those Seminole/Gulfstream people. Wilson did some redesigning of Ross's Gulfstream too. They all hung around together and I remember seeing Wilson around with those people in the early 1960s. Pete Dye's parents were around Delray alot with Wilson too. Some of them were my father, Jim Raymond (the man who drew Dagwood and Blondie), Stewart Iglehart, probably that area's biggest developer at the time. Stewart was a famous 10 goal polo player and perhaps the best rider American polo ever had. They all built Pine Tree together in Boynton Beach as well.

Tom,

I tend to agree that the hiring of Dick Wilson to do any work was a decision independent of the decision to whom the contract should be awarded.  Plus, it seems counterintuitive that they would hire Wilson because of his relationship with the architect who DIDN'T get the job.

[Tom MacWood]

JC
You're right, Wilson would not have been hired based on Flynn's runner-up status at Seminole. It is much more likely he got the job based on Dunphy's experience with Flynn & Co at Friendship GC. Wilson was a relative unknown in 1946-47....getting the Seminole job had to a be major feather in his cap.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
Please reread my prior reply.
Perhaps you missed it, but, there's a timeline contained therein."

Patrick:

Why reread your prior post?

Because it provides an accurate time line that when combined with logic seems to refute Pete's contention about changes to the greens at Seminole.

I know you like to perpetuate myths, so tell us exactly when Pete contends that the greens were changed.
It would seem impossible for him to gleen that any work was done PRIOR to Dick Wilson's work in 1947.


I know there's a timeline contained therein.
Who's timeline is it? Yours? 

The structure of the time line is mine, the components of the time line are part of the public record.
Pete was born on 12-25-25.
America entered WWII on 12-07-41
Seminole was closed for 1943, 1944 and 1945
Dick Wilson worked on Seminole in 1947
Are any of those facts in error ?  If so, please point them out, along with any flaws you find in my reasoning.

How do you know your timeline has anything to do with what Pete Dye said about Seminole's greens being altered or when it may've happened?


For a few reasons.
One, deductive reasoning and the time line.
Two, your past references to Pete's claim

If the alleged work was done before Wilson's work, it would have been done prior to WWII, meaning it might have occured within a very narrow time frame.  Remember, Seminole opened in 1929, when Pete was 4.  WWII with America started when he was 15, and it's reasonable to ascert that Seminole wasn't doing any work to its course during WWII.  So that leaves an 11 year gap, from Pete's age 4 to  age 15.
Do you think he was sufficiently skilled in that 11 year period to determine the scope of any work that might have been done at Seminole between his 4th and 15th birthday ?
And, how would he come into that knowledge ?

It doesn't fly, your revelation is based on hearsay that's contrary to the facts and common sense.
Your staunch defense of his allegation is just another attempt at myth perpetuation, which by the way, you excell at.

If the greens were changed by Wilson wouldn't the club and long time members be aware of it ?
If the greens were changed subsequent to Wilson, it would have had to be in the 50's or 60's, and again, long time members would be aware of that.

Last year, Seminole changed the grass in their greens to "Champions", but, to my knowledge, nothing substantive was done to change the location or character of those greens.

If Pete claims the Ross greens were changed, he must have concrete evidence of when and how.
Why would he tell you that Ross's greens were changed and not tell you when, why and by whom ?
Or, how he came to know this ?

Your perpetuation of this allegation, absent any facts to support the allegation, is nothing more than myth perpetuation, which, as I said before, is your forte

[TEPaul]

"It is much more likely he got the job based on Dunphy's experience with Flynn & Co at Friendship GC."


Please explain the details of Dunphy's experience with Flynn & Co at Friendship? Perhaps you are confusing Dunphy with Edward McLean who also happened to belong to Seminole and who owned Friendship. Believe me, your research vantage point is only going to take you so far in things like this and that would not be very far. Apparently you think you can just throw stuff like that out and impress people who may not know to question it. But this is Golfclubatlas.com and you must understand you probably will find people on here who don't just do only computer research like you, they actually personally knew who these people were and are. 

[Tom MacWood]

No I'm not confusing Dunphy with McLean. Here is an excerpt from the Washington Post (1924) I found while researching Friendship GC and McLean.

[TEPaul]

Thanks for that little 1924 blurb on Chris Dunphy with MacLean's Friendship (his private course). That's very good stuff; very good stuff. It helps explain a bit more about what Dunphy apparently really was and what he apparently really did. It also helps explain the story, perhaps from years ago, about how it was Dunphy who sort of saved Seminole's course right after WW2 and why. It's probably been close to fifty years ago now but I remember seeing him around Seminole. It was impossible to miss him; he was definitely what they used to call a real "character." Some used to describe him as Damon Runyonesque.  It all seems to be becoming clearer now. Good stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly,

That's a great thought.

Bob is probably one of the best living sources for information about Dick Wilson.

[TEPaul]

"Robert von Hagge would be an excellent source on Wilson and Dunphy. I recall him mentioning Dunphy on occasion. RVH even told me once he was at Seminole with JFK."

Kelly:

I'm not sure whether you mean RVH was at Seminole with JFK or Dunphy was at Seminole with JFK but one doesn't have to get too deep into Google to find some great stuff on Dunphy and Kennedy and even at Seminole. The sources themselves of some of those stories are pretty interesting and more than a little impressive. One of them is one of the funnier golf/life related stories I've ever heard.

Well, Hell, no sense in making you search for it; here it is:

JFK was playing with Dunphy at Seminole and on the first hole JFK had a putt he thought Dunphy should concede but Dunphy wasn't conceding it.

JFK:
"Are you telling me this isn't good?"

Dunphy:
"It's the first hole and I'd prefer to see what your stroke looks like today."

JFK:
Chris, I don't have that much time to waste today because I have a meeting with the Director of the IRS after this round."

Dunphy:
"It's good, Mr. President."

[TEPaul]

"Sorry Tom, the misunderstanding is a result of rural Texas education. I meant RVH at SGC with JFK and in fact RVH told me he was present w/ CD for that round with JFK in which the IRS threat was discussed."

Kelly:

There you go; isn't this website something else? It looks like an interesting story just got something of an actual "etymology" source----eg RVH and first hand information! I guess the next question will be if it rises to the "courtroom" scrutiny of some on this site and gets treated as "Proof" and "Fact" or whether it will still wallow in that netherworld of "theory" and "speculation."

By the way, Kelly, are you fully aware of the later really close connections of Seminole to Texas and some Texans or perhaps more appropriately some very serious oil money in that Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma area? If you're not I'll be glad to tell you who some of them were. Pretty interesting cast of characters that very much filter through to today's power structure.

Matter of fact, more than a few times I used to say to my father: "You sure never can tell who the Hell you're gonna run into when you walk into this locker-room." It was a truly interesting and massively diverse cast of characters for sure, and it never seemed to be just infrequent.

[TEPaul]

Kelly:

Now that my mind is devolving, refresh my memory about RVH. I think I remember him from a time back around Sea Island (I think it might have been at an early LPGA tournament there). Isn't he the one with movie star good looks who married both of those pretty Bauer sisters at one time and another?

[TEPaul]

Kelly:

On the Seminole and Texas connection all I can tell you is George Coleman, wonderful president of the club and perhaps some morphing of him or that around back and forth including before him at Seminole. He was from Miami, Oklahoma, and ended up essentially controlling Pennzoil. Some of that may've been his connections to the whole preceding Prescot Bush, George Herbert Walker, Brown Brothers Harriman (Wall St financial powerhouse) connections to Texas oil. That also included the Farrishes of Texas. Of course the more modern connection there was George Bush (Pres. #41) and his Zappata Oil company out of Midland and later the Zappata Off Shore Drilling Rig Co. when he moved to Houston. I do remember one of the Walkers around Seminole who I think was #41's uncle or cousin.

Of course Hogan was a really close friend of Coleman. Read "The Match" if you haven't already. Great story that took place around Pebble and CPC and the Monterrey Peninsula around 1956. The basic theme of it is that it was the time and place where the age old question of who was better----the very best amateurs or the pros was apparently finally answered in a match that sounds like it was almost beyond belief in how the whole thing played out. "The Match" apparently emanated from a massive bet around the Crosby between Coleman and Eddie Lowery who of course hit some fame when he caddied as a little kid for Quimet when he won that remarkable US Open at Brookline in 1913 against Vardon and Ray.

[TEPaul]

"That's him. Worked for Dick Wilson at the same time as Joe Lee."


Kelly:

You know I've mentioned this before on here but back in those days there was a really close group of golfers down around Delray and Gulfstream that really loved Dick Wilson. He was their friend and they all pretty much did do some pretty serious drinking. Of course they got him to do some stuff at Gulfsteam GC and then he built Pine Tree for them. Right around that time he died suddenly and I do remember my father and that group wondering about who they would turn to next. I recall they considered Joe Lee but for one reason or another nothing much happened. And then guess who (in the GCA vein) showed up in town to live in the winter when they were all down there?  

[TEPaul]

Yesterday was Seminole's one day pro-am tournament which years ago used to be known as the Latham Reed which had an impressive array of the finest of the older era. I wonder if they still call yesterday's pro-am tournament that? A friend of mine sent me a copy of the field. I must say there were some pretty impressive pros in it from all tours, many of the present tour players and an impressive array of some of the old guys like Jack and Arnie. Even a few of the older LPGAers.

Well, to tell if they still call it the Latham Reed I guess I could've just looked at the name on the sheet. DUH!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why would Wilson be commissioned in 1947 or earlier when Ross was still alive ?

[JC Jones]

That is a great question and one we didn't address when it was assumed Wilson was hired in 1947.  Then again, Ross died in 1948 so who knew what his health was.  Could we assume that had Ross been contacted for a recommendation it would have been Ellis Maples?

Perhaps Wilson wasn't hired until sometime closer to 1953-1955.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

Ross was still active in 1947.

[TEPaul]

"Why would Wilson be commissioned in 1947 or earlier when Ross was still alive ?"



Pat:

Is that supposed to be some kind of trick question or are you not aware how many times other architects were brought in to do design work on original Ross designs?


As for when Dick Wilson was first brought in to do design work at Seminole I can tell you the relatively recent Seminole history book says he was hired in 1948 by Chris Dunphy who had just been appointed green chairman with a huge amount of latitude by newly appointed president Hunt Dickinson who was a distinctly "hands off" president. Among other things the course had taken a real hit in a destructive 1948 huricane.

The book also says that Dick Wilson was a favorite architect of Ben Hogan. Hogan had gotten the attention of Seminole through his play in the club's noted tournament called the "Amateur-Pro" (which was begun by former president Latham Reed and was later renamed the "Latham Reed").  The book says Wilson was brought in at that time to work on fairway and greenside bunkers and to do a significant revision to the 18th green. The book says Dunphy's pal Ben Hogan and other better players considered the eighteenth the only weak hole on an otherwise sublime golf course.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I see that a couple of years ago you put a comprehensive timeline on this thread apparently to explain why early on Pete Dye could not really have had any knowledge of Seminole on the subject of the greens being significantly changed.

I had a long conversation with Pete Dye the other evening but unfortunately I did not ask him when he recalls those greens were changed. It did not sound to me like he was talking about before or just after WW2. It sounded like he was talking about the 1960s, 1970s or even later.

He went into a long explanation about the contractors who were a big well known company out of Tifton, Georgia. He even gave me a long and detailed explanation about their topdressing methods (and he said he is mailing me some material on that), the piece of machinery they used (a Cushman) and how and why the brushes that were dragged behind the Cushman did not distribute the topdressing evenly over the green contours.

And what of this famous black contractor from Georgia called Amos Jones? Pete said one of the contractors was a black guy but when I asked him exactly who Amos Jones was, Pete said: "Oh, I called them all Amos Jones."

Why would Pete call them all Amos Jones and where did he come up with a name like that? I can't prove it at this point but I have a feeling I might know where he came up with a name like that. Back then down there around that time there were a group of guys that regularly hung around together that included my father, Dick Wilson, probably Pete, Jim Raymond, Stewart Iglehart, Truman Connell, another interesting Italian guy whose name I can't remember right now, and an amazing guy by the name of Warner Jones (a bigtime horseman and the president of Churchill Downs). Those guys always had this crazy name-game going on between them. They would call each other all kinds of crazy names all the time. For about the last twenty years Dad and Warner Jones always called each other "Mollish." So eventually I asked my Dad why he and Warner did that. It was one of the funniest stories I ever heard.

I'll tell you about it later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Why would Wilson be commissioned in 1947 or earlier when Ross was still alive ?"

Pat:

Is that supposed to be some kind of trick question or are you not aware how many times other architects were brought in to do design work on original Ross designs?

TE,

You're probably not aware of it, but, we're talking about Seminole, not other Ross designs.

Seminole, to my knowledge, has never considered their course "open season" to various architects.

I'm aware of Silva's involvement and you're no doubt aware of Rees's membership.

As for when Dick Wilson was first brought in to do design work at Seminole I can tell you the relatively recent Seminole history book says he was hired in 1948 by Chris Dunphy who had just been appointed green chairman with a huge amount of latitude by newly appointed president Hunt Dickinson who was a distinctly "hands off" president. Among other things the course had taken a real hit in a destructive 1948 huricane.

The book also says that Dick Wilson was a favorite architect of Ben Hogan. Hogan had gotten the attention of Seminole through his play in the club's noted tournament called the "Amateur-Pro" (which was begun by former president Latham Reed and was later renamed the "Latham Reed").  The book says Wilson was brought in at that time to work on fairway and greenside bunkers and to do a significant revision to the 18th green. The book says Dunphy's pal Ben Hogan and other better players considered the eighteenth the only weak hole on an otherwise sublime golf course.

I've had the book for some time and am familiar with the writings.
But, we also know, from the histories of other clubs, that the information contained therein, is not always precise, especially when it comes to architecture.

The problem seems to be the following.
Based on Mark's photo analysis, he indicates the following, and I QUOTE:[/b]

Through sheer serendipity I found a 1940 aerial.
It is very poor quality but nevertheless I added it to the carousel:

http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGCmulti.html

I also added a 1964 aerial, which is of very good quality.

We can narrow down the date of 18 green's relocation to between 1964 and 1968.

EDIT: correct dates are from 1958 to 1964.

You also have to remember, that so often, changes to courses are exclusively internal.

So here we have a conflict.

I had always thought, and you seem to indicate that the 18th green was changed circa 1948.

But, the photographic evidence seems to pinpoint 1958 to 1964 as the year the work was done.

Which is it ?