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JC Jones

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Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #125 on: May 22, 2012, 10:33:56 PM »
JC,

To add some context, Robert von Hagge was born in 1930, age 25 in 1955 when he started with Wilson.
Some sources have him joining Wilson in 1957, but, 1955 was the year he was hired as an apprentice.

Von Hagge attended Annapolis for two years, then transfered to Purdue where he graduated in 1951.

Between 1951 and 1955 he spent a few years on the PGA Tour, worked as a club Pro in NY and tried an acting stint, joining Wilson thereafter.

In 1947, when Wilson was initially retained, von Hagge was in high school in Indiana.

Hence my confusion.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #126 on: May 22, 2012, 10:59:43 PM »
JC,

Agreed,

That's why you can't rely solely on club histories.

Often they're undertaken by a member who wants to contribute to the club by crafting the club's history.
A noble gesture to be sure, but, many members are unskilled at this task, venturing far from their vocation to pursue an avocation.

As a result, many histories are incomplete and/or inaccurate with some/many of their facts.

I had always been told that Wilson moved # 18 green circa 1947-1948.
The club was so sure of that date that they published it in the club's history.

Now, according to Mark, it appears that photographic evidence eliminates that date, with a later date being the date of record.

These aerial photos, taken at different times, show evidence of other changes.

Were they intended or a by-product of storms/hurricanes.

If they were intended, were they done in-house, by Ross, Wilson or others ?

The unfortunate part of club histories is that often, architecture and the details and timelines of architectural changes weren't included or were an afterthought.

Other than the book on Sebonack, I can't think of a club history with a significant or primary focus on architecture.
Social and Tournament issues seem to take precendence.

So, we'll just have to soldier on, confused, until the facts are discovered/revealed.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #127 on: December 22, 2017, 11:09:42 AM »
This is a fascinating old thread, not only hitting on some interesting conversation points, but also highlighting some of the personalities that no longer post here.


From a historical standpoint, the initial question asked may be one that we will never answer.  All of the architects noted in the thread (Flynn, Langford, Stong, etc.) were doing work in Florida at the time, but so were a bunch of others including Stiles and Van Kleek, who were probably the most prolific designers in the state in the 1920's.


But the name that stands out as the strongest possibility for one of the two architects who lost out to Ross is Charles Banks.


Of all of the guys noted, it was probably Banks who had the greatest connections to E. F. Hutton and the other founders of Seminole, all as a result of Seth Raynor's connections with Paris Singer.


It was Singer who hired Raynor to design The Everglades Club and the Palm Beach Winter Club, and Singer had engaged Raynor to design two additional courses in the area north of Palm Beach.  The first, the Cragin Park course, was to be located directly across from Singer Island and associated with Singer's Blue Heron Hotel project.  The second was a course to be built in conjunction with the Winter Club north of Kelsey City (which today is known as Lake Park).  When Raynor passed away in early 1926, plans for these two courses were in the works, and every member of The Everglades Club would have been aware of them (including Hutton and whatever other founding Seminole members were associated with T.E.C.).  Enter Charles Banks, who at that time took over Raynor's practice. 


Newspaper reports from just after Raynor's death note Banks was to continue the work started for Singer in the Palm Beach area.  Unfortunately, Singer's interests were taking a downturn, in part at least due to the massive hurricanes that ravaged the Palm Beach area around that time, and all of his projects seemingly ground to a halt.  Just about the only major activity that took place on a Singer property in the later 1920's was the expansion of The Everglades Club.


There isn't much known about the second course to be built north of Kelsey City, other than it was located north of the inlet of the Florida Intercostal Waterway that bordered the location of the Winter Club (today's North Palm Beach CC).  This area is remarkably close to where Seminole GC was built. 


This course, as well as the Cragin Park project, died on the vine.  But in a conversation replete with speculation, one can imagine the scenario where Hutton and the other Everglades Club members sought out the advice of the right hand man of Raynor in the initial plans for a course to be located in the proximity of areas in which Raynor had built and contemplated building courses and Banks had been on tap to complete those plans.


Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2017, 11:45:19 AM »
Sven,


Interestingly enough, this thread and this question came up in a discussion I had with another GCAer just a couple of weeks ago.  Banks was one of the names we started to zero in on but left it where this thread ultimately ended and your post begins:  we are likely never to know the real answer.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #129 on: December 22, 2017, 12:03:39 PM »
Interesting. The Raynor/Banks/Singer/Seminole angle is new to me.


On a related note, what do we know about Ross pitching for the Seminole commission? I have heard he wanted the job to serve as a showpiece that would impress Jones as he chose an architect for ANGC. I have always doubted that story. Anything to suggest it is true?


Bob 

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #130 on: December 22, 2017, 12:08:39 PM »
Bob:


I think the reasons for Ross being brought into the Seminole project might be a bit more mundane.  Hutton was also a member at Gulf Stream, and all of the founders would have been familiar with his work at Palm Beach GC and Palm Beach CC.


In the thread about competitions that is linked earlier in this thread, there's a conversation you had with Brad Klein on this topic in which he says there is no evidence of any ANGC connections to what Ross was doing for Seminole.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross