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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:46:00 AM »
In Brad Klein's book on Seminole he mentions that there was a second architect who bid but lost because a) the bid was too high and b) he wanted to bulldoze the dune on the north/west part of the property.  This is a surprise to me because Hutton was a member of Everglades and Gulfstream, both of which, I think, were Ross courses.  So, presumably they already had a relationship.

Here is an article from March 31, 1929 announcing Seminole:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5r8iAAAAIBAJ&sjid=27UFAAAAIBAJ&dq=Seminole%20Golf%201929&pg=3654%2C8639526

Here is another article from February 19, 1929 announcing the dredging to create Indian Creek Golf Club (Flynn):

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uGAtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=edQFAAAAIBAJ&dq=indian%20creek%20golf&pg=5191%2C3159319

This would put Flynn in the area at the same time plans were being made for Seminole.  In addition, Hutton (as mentioned above being a member of Everglades and Gulfstream) was also a member of the Bath Tennis club, the club involved with the founding of Indian Creek.

This means that Hutton had a connection to both Flynn and Ross.  Is it possible that Flynn submitted a bid/routing for Seminole?

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 11:22:26 AM »
JC:

Wayne and I are not aware that Flynn was the underbidder at Seminole but that doesn't mean all that much I guess, and it surely doesn't mean he may not have been. I might also add that Flynn was working a bit closer to Seminole and very visibly with his Boca Raton courses around the time of Seminole.

I don't know whether it would have any bearing but the clubhouses of Seminole, Gulf Stream, Boca Raton and Indian Creek may've all been Addison Mizner. I know Gulf Stream and Boca Raton were and even though Seminole and Indian Creek look like him they may not have been. Same basic style though.

As far as the other architect proposing to bulldoze those two ridgelines, that does seem a bit strange and excessive but then again when one thinks about that over-all site and at least one inherent problem, perhaps not. On the ocean ridgeline it would've provided much more visiblity of the ocean and would have also served to raise the middle of the course which as you may know is pretty dangerously low to sea level and prone to flooding. Ross's solution for that was a truly remarkable back and forth drainage system.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 11:27:55 AM »
Tom,

The architect of the clubhouse was Marion Sims Wyeth per this article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AsIiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FrYFAAAAIBAJ&dq=seminole%20golf%201929&pg=4147%2C3719795

Interstingly, when built, it had tennis courts and over looked the ocean. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 11:40:38 AM »
"Tom,
The architect of the clubhouse was Marion Sims Wyeth per this article:"

JC:
That makes perfect sense and talk about a family connection in that vein. Marion Sim Wyeth had previously done the remarkable mansion in Palm Beach, Mar-a-Lago, that is basically accross the street from the Bath and Tennis Club. Mar-a-Lago was the Palm Beach home of Marjorie Merryweather Post (Post Cereal) who was at one time married to Edward Hutton. It was eventually bought by Donald Trump.

In the late 60s and early 70s Nixon wanted the US Government to buy it and turn it into a Southern White House and the deal was close to done when the Secret Service flagged it due to the fact it was right on the primary approach to the Palm Beach airport and they felt it was consequently unprotectable!  ;)


Sorry, on further investigation it looks like Mar-a-Lago was designed by a big fat dandy by the name of Joseph Urban. Nevertheless, just so you can get some idea of how cramped Mar-a-Lago is, it was a 126 room 110,000 sf residence. It had a tunnel under the road and right into the Palm Beach Bath and Tennis Club that I think was concreted shut when Trump bought the place. That project cost the B&T about $217,000 to do but the club minutes show the president of the club at the time saying: "I don't care how much it costs the last thing I want to happen is to see that obnoxious pate of Donald Trump come popping uninvited through THAT tunnel door!!"  ;)

By the way, Mar-a-Lago also had something like a 3-6 hole golf course on the inland waterway side. Raynor may've done it but more likely would be HH Barker or even William Robinson.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 11:57:12 AM by TEPaul »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 03:37:55 PM »
This article from the Miami News, November 1, 1925 shows Ross and Flynn in the same circles.  Here, they both have designed courses for the Boca Raton Ritz Carlton.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6FItAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vtcFAAAAIBAJ&dq=william%20flynn%20golf&pg=3756%2C442979

Although Flynn wasn't generally known for earth moving, perhaps he would have felt it necessary to level the 40 foot dune because he didn't have a drainage solution.  One of the genius parts about Ross's design is the way he handled the low, swamp area in the middle of the course.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 03:47:20 PM »
"Although Flynn wasn't generally known for earth moving,"

JC:

On that one you may need to stress the word "generally." I don't think he liked to move much earth unless he saw a pretty good reason to do it and sometimes he did. He sure moved in a lot of fill in with Indian Creek and created a 35 foot elevation that inclines so gradually I doubt 1 in 100,000 would even think it wasn't always there. Generally when he did move earth it could be pretty hard to tell he did or how he did. For instance the green at the wonderful 14th hole at Shinnecock most everyone who thought about it would probably assume it was a cut operation but it was actually a fill operation.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 07:58:20 PM »
JC,
I think you can find an old thread where Brad thought Langford may have been the other architect, although he didn't discount Flynn, and Langford did build quite a few courses in Fla. in that time period. I think it was also mentioned that Langford was fairly well  connected in the high society of the era.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 08:13:56 PM »
Very interesting, Jim.  I'll check it out.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 01:11:29 PM »
Thanks to Jim Kennedy for the link to this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26386.0/

Brad Klein seemed to suggest either Langford or Flynn.  The fun begins around post #22.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 10:46:02 PM »
The 2006 thread hyperlinked on JC Jones's post #8 (he thanked Jim Kennedy for it) just could be one of the most interesting investigative threads I've ever seen on here. Unfortunately, it seems like there was a lot of unanswered questions and unresolved business on that thread. It just sort of ended.

Will we ever know the answers to some of the questions on that thread?

For starters I would love to know what exactly Seminole or anyone else has about the so-called underbidder on Seminole.

What did Brad Klein see? What does Seminole have? Is it basically one and the same?

I suppose there is one potential new avenue to explore? Did the club pay the underbidder for his plan? If so what is the nature of Seminole's historic business records?

I can tell you one thing for sure----eg William Flynn and Howard Toomey were sophisticated businessmen in their era in GCA. Their detailed and itemized and iterated design/business approoach very likely could have been their unique marketing tool and also their special appeal to the type of clients they sought and got----eg a lot of rich, powerful and sophisticated business people and clients who also used a sophisticated business and comprehensive business/record-keeping approach to the things they did and their projects.

Unfortunately, Toomey and Flynn's career business records apparently were dumped immediately after Flynn's sudden death in 1945. Luckily his career drawings survived almost in toto because according to Flynn's daughter, Flynn's wife (her mother) gave them all to William Gordon and they survived and were eventually found and categorized and digitally recorded by us.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 10:59:04 PM by TEPaul »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 10:57:59 PM »
I've emailed Brad in hopes he can help.  I font know what he or anyone has seen of Seminole's records.  I'm hoping the club history can shed some light as well.

I wonder what is out there regarding Langford's records.  If he did a plan, is there a copy he retained?

I'm hoping to get to the bottom of this.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 11:06:11 PM »
Tom--

The clubhouse designer at Indian Creek was Maurice Fatio.

Given that Flynn was really good about keeping drawings around, I'd be surprised if he had a major role at Seminole.


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 11:11:43 PM »
Some of Langford's works that have been featured here don't seem to be from a man who was worried about incorporating ridges on his golf courses.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 11:51:39 PM »
"Given that Flynn was really good about keeping drawings around, I'd be surprised if he had a major role at Seminole."


Adam:

That's such a good point it's stunning. Flynn's career drawing inventory is probably the most complete in exsitence for any architect of his era. Even if something didn't happen he still kept it----and there are a number of examples we have of that---eg York.

Really good point. When you analyze this stuff you really do have to just keep stepping back and looking for the obvious, don't you think?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 10:35:57 AM »
I've emailed Brad in hopes he can help.  I font know what he or anyone has seen of Seminole's records.  I'm hoping the club history can shed some light as well.

I wonder what is out there regarding Langford's records.  If he did a plan, is there a copy he retained?

I'm hoping to get to the bottom of this.


Seminole's club records do NOT reveal the names of the architects considered, although the club does speculate that Flynn was a contender.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 11:31:13 AM »
I've emailed Brad in hopes he can help.  I font know what he or anyone has seen of Seminole's records.  I'm hoping the club history can shed some light as well.

I wonder what is out there regarding Langford's records.  If he did a plan, is there a copy he retained?

I'm hoping to get to the bottom of this.


Seminole's club records do NOT reveal the names of the architects considered, although the club does speculate that Flynn was a contender.


Pat,

Thanks for chiming in.  On what does the club base it's speculation?  I tend to agree with them but Tom Paul and others have presented some pretty good reasons for it not to be him.

Thanks
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 11:38:49 AM »
JC:

Pat Mucci is not a researcher; he's just a speculator. Unfortunately, he pretty much always thinks HIS speculations are about the same thing as reality. That's acturally not uncommon and it very much happens to be a North Jersey kind of thing.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2010, 12:13:18 PM »
JC,

You should never listen to that idiot savant unless he's regaling you with stories of Fireball Roberts or the Dean's daughter.

My source is Seminole's official publication of their history, in their book, "The Story of Seminole"

It appears in Chapter 2, "A Place Like No Other" and in particular appears on page 37.

You can verify this as I mailed that book to you recently.

Page 37 states:

" At least two prominent golf course architects surveyed the land and came back to Hutton and his board with preliminary sketches that called for the properties dramatic 40-foot sandy ridge to be leveled and used to fill the site's low-lying swampy interior, several parts of which lay a foot or two below sea level.  Unfortunately, their names fail to appear in the club's early and sparse record keeping, though, William Flynn is commonly believed  to have been one of those under consideration.......

A third prominent expert, however, saw a way to preserve the sand ridge and use it to great strategic effect in his clever routing plan....." 

The third person referenced, was Ross, who had written to E.F. Hutton requesting the commission.

What's interesting is the reference to the sketches, something Flynn was prone to do.

Perhaps the idiot savant and Wayno didn't do their research to the degree that they could positively exclude Flynn as being one of the three "experts" consulted with at Seminole ;D

Phil_the_Author

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »
Pat,

Any idea on who the "third" (Ross-1, Flynn-2) might be?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 02:12:39 PM »
Pat,

Any idea on who the "third" (Ross-1, Flynn-2) might be?


Philip,

"The Story of Seminole" references seven (7) course designers who were very busy during the 20's,
CBM, SR, WF, GCT, AWT, AM and DR.

It appears that E.F. Hutton and those involved in Seminole with him, had a vision for what they wanted.
Wyeth had designed a cottage for Hutton at the Everglades Club and he had also designed many winter homes in the Palm Beach area, thus he was commissioned to design the clubhouse.

One would think that those men wanted a prominent architect for the golf course as well, thus, the list of the supposed Seminole seven would seem a reasonable pool from which to choose an architect.

I believe that Hutton was also a member of Everglades and Gulfstream, thus, Raynor and Ross would seem like likely candidates since they had previous experience in Florida courses, and perhaps more importantly, had access to the business and social circles that were centered in these clubs and Palm Beach.

Thomas, MacKenzie and MacDonald had no previous Florida experience, but Tillinghast did, leaving him, Flynn, Raynor and Ross as more likely pool candidates

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 03:37:12 PM »
Considering Raynor was dead in 1929, I think we can scratch him off the list.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 04:25:40 PM »
JC,

Banks may have been considered as SR's protege even though he had no Florida experience.

The lineage/pedigree is clearly there.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2010, 04:37:49 PM »
Uh guys, was Seminole into its planning stage in Jan 1926? Raynor didn't die in 1929, he died in Jan. 1926.  ;)


"Perhaps the idiot savant and Wayno didn't do their research to the degree that they could positively exclude Flynn as being one of the three "experts" consulted with at Seminole ;D"


Positively EXCLUDE??  Like in positively proving Flynn DID NOT submit a plan for Seminole? ???

Pat, now I can understand better why you encouraged Moriarty and MacWood with the "Missing Faces of Merion" and Wilson, not to mention MacWood's inclination to debunk the architectural histories of other clubs such as Myopia and Leeds  and Pine Valley and Crump, and including HH Barker for Merion with little to nothing to support his suggestions etc.     ::)
 
 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 04:44:50 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2010, 04:42:33 PM »
Uh guys, was Seminole into its planning stage in Jan 1926? Raynor didn't die in 1929, he died in Jan. 1926.  ;)


Which means he wasn't available in 1929.

Someone explain that to TEPaul.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole Golf Club - The Other Architect
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2010, 04:47:15 PM »
"Which means he wasn't available in 1929.

Someone explain that to TEPaul."


That's some amazing analysis there Pat. Raynor died in 1926 therefore he wasn't available to do Seminole in 1929!!! How clever; who would've thought it? It reminds me of MacWood offering Merion some vague newspaper account and encouraging the research into what the site was Merion chose NOT TO GO TO! How interesting. I guess we could all go look at a bunch of mansions and analyze what Merion might have missed out on.  ::)

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Flynn had offered Hutton or the principles of Seminole a design plan. We certainly don't know that he did but we're not going to spend much time on trying to positively EXCLUDE the possiblity either.  :-*
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 04:54:09 PM by TEPaul »

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