timeline for Willie Dunn, Jr.

[Joe Bausch]

At the bottom of this post is a blurb from the 1896 Philly Inquirer where improvements to the original Philly Country Club are attributed to Willie Dunn.  I'm assuming this is Willie Dunn, Jr.

A quick Google search trying to learn more about Willie brought up this info from the following web page:

http://www.oldcourse.com/Features/Hall%20of%20Fame/North%20American%20Club%20Makers/willie.htm

In the opinion of many historians, Willie Dunn's influence on American golf is grossly underestimated. He was an architect, an instructor, a tournament player and a businessman. Though his many contributions were subtle, he has provided us with a legacy that is unequivocally important.

His story is more a family story than anything else. Willie was son of one of the famous bothers "Dunnie" whose exploits on the links against Old Tom and Allan Robertson live at the heart of early golf professionalism. By the time he was 13 he was working for his older brother Tom as an apprentice golf club maker and later plied Willie his trade in North Berwick. He began to forge his own career while professional at Westward Ho! for two years (1886-88) before moving to Biarritz, France where he was instructing wealthy patrons when he met the American millionaire W.E. Vanderbilt.

It was Vanderbilt who sponsored Willie' first trip to the United States in 1893 where he spent the summer giving lessons at the Newport (Rhode Island) Golf Club. After wintering at his regular position at Biarritz, he returned to America where he won the first, but unofficial, championship of America in 1894. Coming in second in 1895, he found America ripe for golf and settled here permanently.

His first professional position was at the Ardsley Country Club, Ardsley, New York where he designed the course and settled down to a club making business in 1896. Also about this time, he was joined by his nephew, John Duncan Dunn who emigrated from England where he had been engaged with the firm of Dunn Brothers.

John D. Dunn assisted Willie with the business at Ardsley and soon a full retail shop was opened in New York City. Later, the two would be joined by Seymour Dunn, John D.'s younger brother.

With a bloodline as important as his, Willie found himself a valuable commodity. American firms were rapidly expanding into the club making business, desperately trying to keep up with the soaring demand and Willie was sought out by several. One of the earliest entries to the domestic club business was B.G.I. who employed Willie as their club designer in 1897. Replacing himself at B.G.I. with John D., he moved on to Crawford, McGregor and Canby in Dayton within the year and also briefly worked for Spalding , all before 1900.

However short his stays at each of those companies, he instilled in them the skills, methods and style to produce clubs to compete with Scottish imports. During this time he continued to own and run the business in New York which produced clubs into the 20th century.

The clubs the Dunns produced provide an interesting mix of traditional Scottish values and modern ingenuity. Early clubs from the Ardsley days were imported from Scotland and assembled in New York. Some of these irons bear a small eagle mark, a reference to his new home and were possibly forged by Robert Condie. Others were simply marked "Dunn Selected" in either script or block letters and date from 1897-1903.

During this time, the firm received much publicity from the sale of their "one piece" club, made from a single piece of wood, which was actually patented by John D. while he worked for the family in Bournemouth, England in 1894. This club was also sold by B.G.I., Macgregor, Spalding and Wright & Ditson.

One of Willie's first American patents (though it appears to have been applied for but never finally granted) was his Indestructible driver. It's head was a wood block encased in an aluminum shell, the wood being exposed at the face and on top.

In the early 1900s, Willie experimented with plastic-like substances, finally patenting several types of drivers and putters. The substance was known as pyralin and came in black and white versions. Clubs included standard drivers, duplex drivers and mallet putters and for manufacturing purposes the patents were assigned to the Kempshall Manufacturing Co. in Arlington, NJ.

Willie continued to design and patent clubs well into the 1920s but by then he had moved to San Jose, CA where he retired. He lived until 1952.

I think Willie is also credited for some work on the early Princeton Golf Club (now Springdale) and Shinnecock Hills. 

I'm trying to get a timeline down for Willie.  Where was he say between 1900 and in the 1920's when he was in San Jose, CA?

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

I'm amazed to learn that Willie Dunn lived until 1952.   I know he designed oodles of very early American courses but then seems to have fallen off the architectural map after about 1907 or so.

He did in fact design the course at Princeton that was being built when Hugh Wilson was on the Green Committee there around the turn of last century, and Wilson likely knew him, as Wilson used to vacation at Saranac in far upstate NY which was laid out by Willie and Seymour Dunn around 1905, I believe.

For a fellow as pervaasive in early American architecture as he was, do you think he got washed away with the tide away from strictly geometric golf?   I know that Walter Travis was very, very critical of Dunn's architecture.

[Joe Bausch]

For a fellow as pervaasive in early American architecture as he was, do you think he got washed away with the tide away from strictly geometric golf?   I know that Walter Travis was very, very critical of Dunn's architecture.

Perhaps.  When was Travis critical of his architecture?

Note:  here is more on Willie, from the following web page:

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/dunn.html

WILLIAM DUNN JNR. born 1865 in the Borough of Blackheath in the suburbs of London where his father was the greenkeeper and club maker. That year the family returned to Leith Thistle G.C and were living at 7 Vanburgh Place, Leith Links, Edinburgh. In 1881, Willie Dunn Jnr. moved to North Berwick where his older brother Tom Dunn was appointed Keeper of the Green. It was here that Willie Jnr. apprenticed as a club maker with his brother Tom and Charles Gibson.

Willie Dunn Jnr. was 15 years old when he played his first match against Ben Sayers at North Berwick and won. The following year he partnered Sayers in a money match against the two Fernies at St Andrews. The first day was halved but the second day Dunn and Sayers won the match by five holes. Willie entered the Open Championship for the first time from North Berwick in 1883 and again in 1884, and 1886.

In 1886, Willie Dunn Jnr. was asked by Horace Hutchinson to take charge of the links of the Royal North Devon Golf Club at Westward Ho!. Dunn remained there for a year and laid out the present course. In 1888, he moved to Royal Epping Forrest in Chingford and laid out their 18 hole course. The following year he was considered for the vacant post at Worcestershire Golf Club but instead transferred to Biarritz in France where his brother Tom designed the course during a winter visit while still engaged at North Berwick.

Willie Jnr. remained at Biarritz for six years and in 1891 James Beveridge recommended him for the position of instructor at Shinnecock Hills. Willie was persuaded by Duncan Cryden and Edward S. Mead of Dodd, Mead & Co to come to America. James Beveridge was club maker at Shinnecock and knew Willie Dunn when they both lived and worked in North Berwick. Willie laid out a twelve hole course at Shinnecock and a nine-hole ladies course. Four years later a combination of the two courses were used to host the 1896 US Open. Willie Dunn Jnr. was the first unofficial champion of America in 1894 and runner-up in the first official US Open 1895.

By 1896, after flying visits to Biarritz in the winter, Willie Dunn with his wife and son Willie Dunn Jnr settled at the links of Ardsley Country Club in New York. It was here he set up a club manufacturing business and was joined by his nephew John D. Dunn in 1897. Willie opened a retail shop in New York and began experimenting with steel shafted clubs and was the first to use a tee peg. In 1895, he established the first Indoor Golf Centre and he continued this facility when his business moved to 9 East, 42 Street New York in 1898, a few blocks away from John D. Dunn's premises. In 1900, Willie Dunn Jnr laid out a private nine-hole course for John D Rockefeller on his Tarrytown Estate, NY.

When Dunn left the Royal North Devon Golf Club he recommended Charles Gibson from North Berwick as his replacement. Bert Way was Dunn's apprentice at North Devon and when he left Shinnecock Hills, Dunn recommended W.H. 'Bert' Way as his replacement. John Forman the Musselburgh 'caddie' followed Willie Dunn at Ardsley (1898-1901).

Most historians agree that Willie Dunn's influence on the development of the sport in the USA during the early part of the twentieth century was considerable. In the 1920s, Willie Dunn Jnr. moved to San Jose in California where he retired. He died in London at the age of 52 years.

But again it seems he sort of 'disappeared' there in the early part of the last century, perhaps around 1907 as you suggest.

[TEPaul]

"I'm amazed to learn that Willie Dunn lived until 1952."


Me too.

Does the timeline mention if it's true that Willie Dunn Jr invented the hoola hoop, the Twist and Rock and Roll itself? That's what I've heard. If it's true one would certainly not want to minimize that remarkable contribution to human culture.

Joe:

It looks like you said above that Willie Dunn died at 52. You may have that wrong. I think it's more like he died in 1952 at around the age of 122. You also neglected to copy the end of that article of Charles "chick" Evans when Chick said Willie told him he screwed 10,000 Southern Cal girls when he went out there in 1928.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

It looks like you said above that Willie Dunn died at 52. You may have that wrong.

That web page I took that from probably has it wrong.

[TEPaul]

Joe:

The Internet is a truly wonderful thing. I have just received seemingly irrefutable information from Scotland that Willie Dunn Jr is actually still alive. They say he can't exactly get it up or cut a rug like he used to but he still very much has all his marbles and he can still pretty much beat most young punks of Musselburgh at marbles.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Jim Kennedy turned me on to this article a little while ago...

It's even more interesting what Travis wrote about Ross and Pinehurst...

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf

[Mike Cirba]

Joe:

The Internet is a truly wonderful thing. I have just received seemingly irrefutable information from Scotland that Willie Dunn Jr is actually still alive. They say he can't exactly get it up or cut a rug like he used to but he still very much has all his marbles and he can still pretty much beat most young punks of Musselburgh at marbles.

He also wrote that famous line in the Stevie Wonder song, "...but if you really want to hear our views, you ain't Dunn Nuthin'"

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Regarding that article by Travis linked on your #6, isn't it just so interesting that Travis seems to refer to golf course architecture as "construction?" 

I wonder if Hugh Wilson and his committee knew that.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

It's probably just a strange coincidence but Crump's committee at PV in early 1913 was also named the Construction Committee...go figure!

[Tom MacWood]

I would probably agree with the author, Dunn's influence on American golf has been appreciated. On the other hand I don't believe his influence on American golf architecture has been understated, with the possible exception of his influence on Hugh Wilson.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

It's probably just a strange coincidence but Crump's committee at PV in early 1913 was also named the Construction Committee...go figure"


Did you think George Crump was just a good golfer? No way. They say there were few anywhere who could handle a shovel like George Crump could handle a shovel. Some say he learned that art from Harry Colt but I don't buy it.

[TEPaul]

"On the other hand I don't believe his influence on American golf architecture has been understated, with the possible exception of his influence on Hugh Wilson"


I'm sure we would all love to know more about what Willie Dunn Jr's influence on Hugh Wilson was. Can you enlighten us?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Interesting Stuff in that Travis article.  He mentions that HH Barker was the pro at GC when Dunn did the work, and later says Dunn's successor "had no genius for gca".  Who was Dunn's succesor?  Was it Barker or someone else?

[TEPaul]

"Interesting Stuff in that Travis article.  He mentions that HH Barker was the pro at GC when Dunn did the work, and later says Dunn's successor "had no genius for gca".  Who was Dunn's succesor?  Was it Barker or someone else?"


Jeff:


Very good question indeed. As seems to happen with some of these old articles it's occasoinally very hard to determine exactly what some of these people were talking about.

As odd as it may seem to us now, Travis appears to be talking in that section about Pinehurst and it appears he may be actually talking about Ross at the time as having "no genius" (perhaps meaning no natural talent at that tme) for these new ideas in architecture until Travis whispered in his ear and informed him of what it (the genius) was.

I think we can be relatively confident in the fact that whatever Ross had done at Pinehurst architecturally previous to that time Travis was speaking about (1906) had been pretty shockingly rudimentary and geometric-----eg in fact the same type and style that Travis said Willie Dunn Jr had been responsible for previously.

There is one unmistakable thing about Walter Travis that should be pretty obvious to any of us who have read most of what he wrote and that is he sure did not mind and did not hesitate to take personal credit for developing a whole lot of the ideas for the way architecture was going through the first and second and third decades of the 20th century.

I think there is also another fact that is fairly obvious from reading a lot of the commentary on golf and architecture from the first half of the first decade of the 20th century and that was that Travis seemed to be the one whose opinion on a number of these things was the most respected in America. It is probably no wonder either----as he was also considered to be America's best player and back then that accounted for a whole lot more than it seems to today.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
The comment about hundreds of courses to his credit could be only one person - Tom Bendelow.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

How do you deduce that Bendelow was Dunn's successor? I thought Bendelow started with Spaulding or American Park Builders. Did Dunn work there?

[Tom MacWood]

I'm sure we would all love to know more about what Willie Dunn Jr's influence on Hugh Wilson was. Can you enlighten us?

TEP
That's an excellent question. Mike has often cited Wilson's involvement with the Princeton course as his primary qualification for designing Merion, perhaps he could elaborate on Dunn's influence.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

How do you deduce that Bendelow was Dunn's successor? I thought Bendelow started with Spaulding or American Park Builders. Did Dunn work there?

Was there any other golf architect with hundreds of courses to his credit in 1920? I don't believe Travis meant literally that this architect was a partner or protege of Dunn's, instead that this person took over the mantel, so to speak.

[Mike Cirba]

We don't know what if any influence Dunn had on Wilson, or whether what was done at Princeton was simply a paper job by Dunn because we also know that professional James Swan made changes to what Dunn had drawn.  

This was not Wilson's "primary qualification" for designing Merion, nor have I ever suggested that.   It merely meant that Wilson was not a "complete novice with the knowledge of an average club member" as far as construction and agronomy as he humbly contended in his modest public statements, as he was on the Green Committee at Princeton as that course was being constructed.   Neither was Rodman Griscom who had been head of the Merion Green Committee when the original course was designed and built...neither was Dr. Harry Toulmin who had been one of three men who designed Belmont according to Prosper Sennat's 1900 Philadelphia course guide.

As far as possible connections to Dunn, we also know that Wilson vacationed at Saranac in upstate NY, which was a Willie and Seymour Dunn production.   It's likely that Wilson had some personal knowledge of Dunn, but not necessarily.

Of the Merion committee-men who designed Merion East, Rodman Griscom would likely have the best knowledge of Dunn, as he was the head of the Green Commmttee in 1896 when Dunn did work on the original Merion course, making some revisions to Willie Campbell's course, and perhaps adding a second nine (which is something unclear at this point).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tmac,

That is possible, but I didn't read it that way.  I also figure that the "hundreds of courses" might include remodels and consulting, etc. and/or might be the sort of exagerrated course list that is still prevalent today. Granted, its rare for a gca to exagerrate someone else's course list!

Was there ANY connection between Bendelow and Dunn by firm, design school, etc?  And if TB is the man in question, then its interesting to note that his rep was tarnished early, perhaps by designing all those beginner courses while others were designing the championship courses.

Of course, the most interesting point of all of that is how Travis manages to take credit for P2, while allowing that Ross actually designed it.  Is there any corroboration of this story?

[Tom MacWood]

"Finally in 1906 I won him [Tufts] around to my way of thinking and he gave me carte blanche to go ahead. I knew the changes that I had in mind would result in a big uproar at the start, and I didn't feel like shouldering the whole responsibility. So I suggested that Donald Ross and I should go over the course together and, without conferring, each propose a separate plan. I knew what
the result would be.

For some time I had been pouring into Donald's ears my ideas; in point of fact, I had urged him to take up the laying out of courses, as with the certain development of the game a fine future was assured for one having a bent in this line. In those days Willie Dunn had ceased to figure and his successor, although credited with laying out some hundreds of courses all over the country, really had no genius for the work. Donald heeded my advice . . . and golf has been tremendously benefited by his many very fine creations since."

The only architect I'm aware of who was claiming hundreds of courses to his credit in 1920 was Bendelow, and he was by far the busiest architect in 1906 when Travis suggested Ross get into the game. Who else could it possibly be?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
That's an excellent question. Mike has often cited Wilson's involvement with the Princeton course as his primary qualification for designing Merion, perhaps he could elaborate on Dunn's influence."


An excellent question? For starters, I'm not so sure it is even remotely an excellent question. It seems to me these so-called excellent questions from you over the years on a number of courses and architects have led down some pretty strange roads that result in some prominent dead-ends.

But if Mike Cirba has cited some Wilson involvement with the Princeton course as a qualification for Wilson designing Merion, and some Dunn influence on Wilson from Princeton then perhaps Mike Cirba could enlighten all of us on that.

As for Merion, Wilson and all those surrounding him at the time I am not aware of a single mention of any influence of Dunn on Wilson or any connection of Wilson to Dunn at all. Are you? But I suppose one might still ask the question (excellent or otherwise ) what does that really matter and what do the reported opinions of those involved back then really matter? We certainly do know the likes of you and Moriarty have asked those questions and even made those assumptions (in the form of premises) and even formed some conclusions in that vein for some years now. After all they were there and we weren't so it makes perfect sense to ask what could they have possibly known about any of it, don't you think?  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Either the experience observing Dunn at Princeton provided Wilson with some basic understanding (or more) of golf design or it didn't, and if it didn't we should accept his own assessment of himself that he was a novice.

[Mike Cirba]

TEP
It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Either the experience observing Dunn at Princeton provided Wilson with some basic understanding (or more) of golf design or it didn't, and if it didn't we should accept his own assessment of himself that he was a novice.

Tom,

I think in the interest of historical accuracy, you really need to be more specific about the context of Wilson's only recorded remarks as to his ability.

As you know very well, he was asked by Piper & Oakley to write a segment on golf course agronomy.   It had nothing at all to do with architecture, design, or anything related besides soils, soil movement, drainage, and growing and maintaining turfgrass.   In that regard, he specifically stated;

“The members of the committee had played golf for many years, but the experience of each in construction and greenkeeping was only that of the average club member. Looking back on the work, I feel certain that we would never have attempted to carry it out, if we had realized one-half the things we did not know.”

I'm not sure why you persist in omitting that fundamental fact and trying to make his comments directly related to course design?   He doesn't say a word about design or his or the committee's related abilities or inabilities.