Punch bowl greens

[Adrian_Stiff]

I designed one once and it turned out to be a fan fave.  When I asked why the answer was "I can hit it almost anywhere and still end up on the green...or "I can hit almost any club from 8 to 5 iron and it still ends up on the green".

Ask not what the golfer can do by himself, ask what the course can do for the golfer

Jeff - It does not suprise me it became a fan fave. There's a lesson in there.... most golfers want to be helped and they like easy and they like to feel they are better than they realy are.

[Bill_McBride]

I designed one once and it turned out to be a fan fave.  When I asked why the answer was "I can hit it almost anywhere and still end up on the green...or "I can hit almost any club from 8 to 5 iron and it still ends up on the green".

Ask not what the golfer can do by himself, ask what the course can do for the golfer

Jeff, are you talking about the right half of that short par 4 at the Wilderness?  That was a cool and fun green.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Aidan - I love it when you post theres always some great pics coming.

[Aidan Bradley]

Thank you Adrian............ here is my latest favourite...... there will be some who may say "where is the golf course"? but depending on the client, I like to show the environment within which the course resides........

[Jeff_Brauer]

I designed one once and it turned out to be a fan fave.  When I asked why the answer was "I can hit it almost anywhere and still end up on the green...or "I can hit almost any club from 8 to 5 iron and it still ends up on the green".

Ask not what the golfer can do by himself, ask what the course can do for the golfer

Jeff, are you talking about the right half of that short par 4 at the Wilderness?  That was a cool and fun green.

Bill,

No, my only true punchbowl is the fifth at Ridgeview Ranch in Plano, Tx.  That is more of a Redan in MN (followed by a Biarritz!) I think they were asking the other Jeff, but yeah, drainage can be a problem.  The one at Kingsley in sandy soil has no true surface drain outlet, but most should. Raynor used to sneak a swale out the side on his, with the one at Blue Mound being a prime example, and I would try to do the same.  There are even some problems with the tops of the greens, where all the water comes down the slopes. In a USGA green, its wise to add some tiles at the top of the green to try to get some of that water before it crosses the whole surface.

The one that I built, I cut the green into the slope and it turns out there was a spring there and we had to tile that one up the slope and through the green to dry it out later on. If I had known that I might have put a six inch pipe through the green to handle the extra and constant flow.

[Bill_McBride]

I designed one once and it turned out to be a fan fave.  When I asked why the answer was "I can hit it almost anywhere and still end up on the green...or "I can hit almost any club from 8 to 5 iron and it still ends up on the green".

Ask not what the golfer can do by himself, ask what the course can do for the golfer

Jeff, are you talking about the right half of that short par 4 at the Wilderness?  That was a cool and fun green.

Bill,

No, my only true punchbowl is the fifth at Ridgeview Ranch in Plano, Tx.  That is more of a Redan in MN (followed by a Biarritz!) I think they were asking the other Jeff, but yeah, drainage can be a problem.  The one at Kingsley in sandy soil has no true surface drain outlet, but most should. Raynor used to sneak a swale out the side on his, with the one at Blue Mound being a prime example, and I would try to do the same.  There are even some problems with the tops of the greens, where all the water comes down the slopes. In a USGA green, its wise to add some tiles at the top of the green to try to get some of that water before it crosses the whole surface.

The one that I built, I cut the green into the slope and it turns out there was a spring there and we had to tile that one up the slope and through the green to dry it out later on. If I had known that I might have put a six inch pipe through the green to handle the extra and constant flow.

I was talking about the Wilderness in TX not MIN.  But I do think it was followed by a cool Biarritz, so maybe you meant to type "TX!"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

Again, my bad. I forgot about that one. But, I think of it more as a Dell hole followed by a Biarritz.  But, since the banks are smooth turf, then I guess it is a PB.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Again, my bad. I forgot about that one. But, I think of it more as a Dell hole followed by a Biarritz.  But, since the banks are smooth turf, then I guess it is a PB.

Whatever it is, it's fun playing off those steep, smooth banks!

[Kevin Pallier]

The last three green sites at Old Macdonald are all punchbowls of one sort or another.

Tom

Here are a few pics of the last 3 greens at OM

I'd be keen to know how much of the "punchbowl" at 18 was completely "natural" v what you had to move to try and create it ?

16:


17:


18:

[Mark Pritchett]

There is a great one at Augusta CC.

Here is a picture of this green, but it is deeper than appears in the photo.  The 16th is an uphill Par 4 of about 350 yards, from the fairway you can only see the top of the flag. 



Photo credit to our own Jon Heise. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

They were once popular because they gathered dew which watered the green.

I've read this before but I'm not convinced it was the sole or even main reason for them.  If people we citing examples where, on an old course, a particularly exposed green was 'massaged' or selected to retain moisture then fine.  But the one's I've seen pop up at any point in the round and I believe were selected because

a) people liked an element of blindness - 'sporting'

b) the ground leant itself to this approach and it added variety.


Yes that green probably stayed a little greener in summer and was more receptive to the better shot played directly to it but that's only part of it's appeal.

[Sean_A]

They were once popular because they gathered dew which watered the green.

I've read this before but I'm not convinced it was the sole or even main reason for them.  If people we citing examples where, on an old course, a particularly exposed green was 'massaged' or selected to retain moisture then fine.  But the one's I've seen pop up at any point in the round and I believe were selected because

a) people liked an element of blindness - 'sporting'

b) the ground leant itself to this approach and it added variety.


Yes that green probably stayed a little greener in summer and was more receptive to the better shot played directly to it but that's only part of it's appeal.

Yes, I think its a little of all of this.  "It seemed like a good idea at the time".

I really like Hoylake's Punch Bowl.  There is some strategy to getting to left of the fairway for the optimum angle in and a better view of the approach.  Nobody talks about it, but this is one of my favourite holes on the course.  It also breaks up a run of raised greens and that sort of sameness about many of the Colt greens on this side of the course.  Its strange, but indivually, these holes (8, 10, 11 & 12) are all good, but as a group I find them lacking in somewhat in variety.   

Ciao

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

the only one that springs to mind is at Bay of Quinte in Ontario and it is fun to play.   I think there would be maintenance issues with cutting and drainage unless they were well engineered. 

There seems to be far too many not so subtle "punch bowl drains"  or "catch drains" around new courses for my liking.

[David Whitmer]

I've played only one punchbowl green to my knowledge, the 7th at Camargo (it's an alps/punchbowl). The front of the green is guarded by two huge bunkers. The three remaining sides do not have short grass right next to the green, but typical bluegrass rough. I've always thought that defeated the purpose...why have a punchbowl green if the area right next to the green is long rough? Does anyone else think that makes no sense? Is that what Raynor would have wanted there?