[David_Tepper]

Mac -

I am not sure why there is always (or almost always) a goofy (or semi-goofy) hole or two at the US Open each year. It certainly does not excuse the condition. Maybe if the USGA was not so desperately obsessed with "defending par," it would not happen.

JC Jones -

If the fact that 10% of the field made made double-bogey (or worse!) on a par-5 does not, at the very least, raise the question of fairness regarding #14 green, there is not much more that I can say on the subject.

DT       

[mike_beene]

this is stupid goofy.My problem is the element of chance once you get out of position.Could just as easily make 6 or 12.

[Pete_Pittock]

   The hole is fair but difficult. You have a small green target with a lob wedge in your hand. One strategy which worked was to aim for the bunker on the second shot and try for an up and down birdie. Few tried it. What I find intriguing is that with all which is known about it people who miss it on the left side still try and make par. Egos gets in the way.
   Is there a factor involved that players do not have the right bounce on a wedge for the tight lie involved. And it only brings 'rub of the green' in play if you do not use it as its defined golf term.  

[Matt_Ward]

I love when certain people wax on about "pampered american golf culture" - it's a great spin to cover-up the fact that #14 is borderline goofy -- the kind of hole that accentuates the element of luck over skill.

Jeff W said it best -- just pick the course and don't overdo things. Amen to that. The greatness of the hole doesn't need to be "beefed' up.

[Jim Nugent]

Through two rounds, 14 is averaging 5.4487.  Players have recorded as many "others," i.e. worse than double, on it as on the entire front nine. 

Has any par 5 in modern USGA, PGA or R&A history (say last 70 years) been tougher for the world's best players?   

[John Kirk]

Either you think the 14th green at Bandon Trails and the 14th green at Pebble Beach are both OK, or both are not OK.  No double standards allowed.

I don't like the shaved bank left of the green.  What I don't like with either 14th hole in their current configuration is their relative importance to the overall round score.  If somebody misses the cut or loses the tournament because they made a 9 on this hole, then it's too important.  Same thing happens at Bandon Trails.

[Kevin Pallier]

It's an interesting P5 and given that 6 and 18 are seemingly playing relatively shorter and easier I have no problem with 14 testing them moreso.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones -

If the fact that 10% of the field made made double-bogey (or worse!) on a par-5 does not, at the very least, raise the question of fairness regarding #14 green, there is not much more that I can say on the subject.

DT       

David (and all who posted after him and ignored my post),

Ok, it raises a question.  One that I answered.  10% of the field made birdie, does that make the hole too easy?  How do you feel about #9 and #17, both of which are playing harder?

How about the fact that more birdies have been made on #14 than any of 1, 2, 5, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16 and 17?

There have been MORE birdies on #14 than half of the other holes on the course?

Again, I understand you saw a couple of tour pros play the hole poorly and end up with big numbers but once you inform yourself of all the facts, it is clear the hole is not "unfair," especially relative to the rest of the holes on the course.

[Gary Slatter]

it represents the toughest 4th shot in the Open, I think it's a great par five as it plays normally and as it's set for the US OPEN test!

[Jud_T]

It'll be interesting to see if this hole becomes an issue for the USGA before the next Open at Pebble.  Given their fixation with greens stimping at 11-12, would they dare to request changes?  Will this keep them from coming back?  Calling Pat Mucci.....

[Mike Cirba]

And they want to flatten the 12th and 15th greens at Merion?!?!?

There is nothing wrong with asking for planning, execution, and preciseness from the world's best players.

If everyone in the field was making 8s and 9s it would be goofy golf.

It's not.

[jim_lewis]

Pebble Beach sure does attract a lot of criticism:
Greens are too bumpy.
Too many mediocre holes
12,14,and 17 are worse than mediocre.
Six consecutive holes (5-10) with hazard on the right. (That's my own criticism)
"Put it in the middle of Kansas and its an average course"

Some, or most, of those comments may be valid. Nevertheless, I still can sqeeze it into the top 25 of all courses I have played.

[Adam Clayman]

I love when people don't have the balls to call a spade a spade (garden implement)

Matt, You're the one waxing and waning on the tests that face the better golfers. Or, is longer the only challenge you know? Working the ball?

These boys have lob wedges in their hands! Why do a few have the ability to play prudently, yet, others who play it poorly cause you to call it goofy?

It's a fundamental tenant of great golf course architecture to have multiple ways to accomplish the task at hand. Allowing the individual player to use their BRAIN.
 The 14th at Pebble, epitomizes that freedom, that variety, which causes the doubt and identifies the better decision maker, as well as the flawed one.

Luck has nothing to do with it.

[Anthony Gray]

it represents the toughest 4th shot in the Open, I think it's a great par five as it plays normally and as it's set for the US OPEN test!

     

[Scott Weersing]

I have wondered why the Pebble Beach company has not rebuilt the greens has often as other courses (ie, Riveria). Which greens have been redone in the last 10 years? What is the life span of a green?


The no. 14 green does not have that many places to put the pin. But that is because it is a strange design, rather the greens are too fast and this eliminates certain places to put the pin.

I would love to see the pin in the front right. But putts would roll off the putting surface.

I would also like to see them move up the tees on no. 14 so players have 215 yards in for the second shot. If would be interesting to see if more players could hit the green from 215 yards or from 100 yards.

[Sean Leary]

The second green was redone a few years back with bent. I assume that it is all poa now.

The only thing worse than a bumpy poa green is a bumpy half poa, half bent green. Poa is inevitable there, so it seems pointless to me to try bent.

[David_Tepper]

JC Jones -

To me, the important question is not if #14 can reward excellent/very good shots. As the data shows, it does. But then again, par 5-s, by their very nature, should have the highest percentage of birdies of the holes on any golf course. The fact that holes #17 & #9 are yielding fewer birdies is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

The important question is, how badly does #14 punish average/mediocre shots into the green? If more than 10% of the field is making double-bogey (or worse) on a par-5 hole with no hazard stakes, at the very least it raises the question that something might be wrong. Yes, there is OB down the entire right side of the hole, but I doubt that is responsible for more than a few of the double-bogeys & others.

DT


   

[David Stamm]

If memory serves, the 14th has lost quite a bit of green surface (like alot of greens at Pebble), thus limiting the pin positions available. Flattening the green would be a shame. Whatever the opinion of the hole being too hard, it seems that this is mainly due this week to the shaved bank. A controversial decision in course set up I hope will not cause a rash decision in changing the green.


If anything, I have a bigger issue with the 17th green.

[David_Tepper]

David Stamm -

I agree with what you (and Jeff Warne) have said. If the slope behind the 14th green was shaved down only 6'-8' beyond the edge of the green that would drastically reduce the "goofy golf" aspect of the hole.

DT   

[Sean Leary]

David Stamm -

I agree with what you (and Jeff Warne) have said. If the slope behind the 14th green was shaved down only 6'-8' beyond the edge of the green that would drastically reduce the "goofy golf" aspect of the hole.

DT   

I didn't watch much but it seemed like a lot of guys that hit it long tried to chip it past the hole into the slope and have it feed back. Didn't seem like people got it that close doing it that way, at least from what I saw..

[Jim Nugent]

If you look at the stats for #14 at Pebble, there were just as many doubles or worse (35) as there were birdies or better (34).  Moreover, the hole plays easier than #17 and about the same as #9.

I don't know if the hole is "unfair," whatever that means.  But I don't think comparing it to #17 is meaningful.  Par 5s virtually always play easier than par 3s for pros.  That's because they can hit most par 5s in two, and putt for eagle.  Only way to eagle a par 3 is hole in one. 

At 17, they are hitting long iron into the green.  At 14 they are hitting, what, wedge?  The fact that they are scoring nearly the same against par shows how tough 14 really is. 

Again I wonder if any other par 5 has played so hard for the pros? 

[John Kirk]

Let me repeat my criticism, since it seems to have been lost.  The penalty for a small error on the 14th hole is disproportionately high.  Miss three yards left, two yards right, or six yards long and be faced with an impossible recovery shot.  The minor miss here is worth 2 to 4 shots, a disproportionate penalty that may change who wins.

However, it should be noted that I have not seen one player attempt the safe "bogey" recovery play to the back of the green.  On the other hand, I am unconvinced the safe play is significantly easier, and would likely yield some double-bogey 7s.

[Zack Molnar]

The safe play isnt even that safe. If you miss a little left trying to go long, it will trickle down the slope and be down at the side of the green, which is a guaranteed 7(or hockey stick as the awful Chris Berman insisted on calling it yesterday). There really is no safe place to hit it on this green. Its just a very exacting shot

[Tim Bert]

Ok - so we are all rootin for different people today. We've made that clear on other threads. Can we all come together and root for the 14th hole today?  As fans of interesting course design, let's root for no worse than double bogey from the groups in contention.

With a least one insane golf writer already complaining and a worldwide stage in primetime is the green doomed to be blown up before 2019 if Tiger puts up an 8 or 9 there today while in contention?  If so, book your tee time now if you haven't played the course as it would never be the same without the 14th green.  It would be sort of like moving 8, 9, and 10 inland. 

[John Avram]

I believe #14 at Pebble is one of the truly unique holes out there, not just at Pebble, but anywhere.  There is not another green like it, and the story about Palmer's tree is an undervalued footnote in the course's history.  I wouldn't rate it as high as #8 or #18,  but of the inland holes,  it is easily the best.

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