#14 at Pebble Beach

[John_Cullum]

Tim,
My take is the same as yours. Goydos' pitch was not played poorly, yet it was doomed. It perhaps could have been played a little better, but he did not deserve that outcome.

[Tim Bert]

Tim

I agree with the comment that there was no safe way to put the ball in the neighborhood of the hole. BUT there is plenty of opportunity from his spot to safely chip or putt a ball to the top of the green and leave a 20-30 foot putt. Much safer route than the one he took an it leaves him with bogey at worst and a chance to save par.

[Mike Cirba]

I've always felt the 14th at Pebble is one of the most interesting par fives in golf.

I've also wondered why it isn't emulated more often...certainly it seems re-creatable (if that's a word) on different sites, and in concept is somewhat unique.

[CJ Carder]

For those of you who might classify the hole as "unfair" or "over the top" simply because neither Goydos or Molder could aim at the pin, who says that aiming at the pin is a right?  As Mr. Plumart so right points out, Goydos hit some incredibly poor shots on that hole to get himself into the position of making the "career shot" decision.  I was reading Shackelford's blog with Goydos' press conference comments and he even said he was trying to hit 7-iron from 139 on his 3rd so he could get it towards the back of the green.  7-iron from 139 and you come up short?!?!  I think you could make a really solid argument that the missed flop over the bunker wasn't even the shot that did Goydos in on that hole.

I personally loved the hole and how it played yesterday.  How many par 5's in the world can put pressure on all 3 shots? 

[Adam Clayman]

.

Is this the first year that left side was shaved down?  If they leave it for the US Open and they put the pin where it was today, the USGA runs the risk of a situation like they had at Shinnecock in 2004 if things firm up.

What situation? The best golf tournament with the most exciting interfacing with the gca?

[George Pazin]

I always look at one thing to determine if a hole is "unfair" or poorly set up: what happens when you play safe? Johnson answered that question rather nicely.

This situation reminds me of 17 Valderama. There are times when they set it up so that even when you play safe, you have a strong risk of ending up in the drink. Now THAT is unfair, imho, not what happened to Moulder and Goydos.

[Scott Warren]

I'm all for the concept of a tough-par par 5, but the 14th at Pebble Beach is looking like a travesty right now.  When the announcers are talking about players having to hit "a career shot" in order to get it within 10 feet of the hole, there's something very wrong going on.

Thoughts?

They should lay up further back so they have a longer pitch and can spin the ball more.

Too many of then knocked it just short when that was the wrong place to be for that pin. They got bit. maybe next time they will plan their assault a bit better.

[JNC Lyon]

I thought 14 was the most interesting hole on the golf course yesterday.  A tough three-shot par five is almost unheard-of on tour.  The spoiled tour pros and the announcers (mostly former spoiled tour pros) think any par five that is unreachable is boring, silly, and unfair.  If every player has to play the same golf course, the course is not unfair.

The hole is very good for a couple of reasons.  First, the second shot forces the player to commit and lay up into a narrow strip of fairway.  Otherwise, the player with either be too far back or in the rough.  A birdie demands the player be bold with his lay-up second.  

Second, the green is phenomenal.  Would a modern architect build that green on a long par five today?  Absolutely not.  In theory, the green levels the playing field between the long hitter and the short hitter.

One thing that seemed misleading on the telecast was that Molder and Goydos had ways to avoid making a 9.  Both players had the option to bail out long right with their approach shots and their wedge shots around the green.  Goydos could have simply wedged onto the back of the green, two-putted for six, and walked to the 15th tee tied for the lead.  The extreme numbers came because players were unwilling to play safe on wedge shots.  You might see a player play away from the flag on a wedge shot in the major championships.  However, they are just unwilling to do it in a regular tour event.

I have never been in more agony than I was watching Goydos' slow motion car wreck on the hole.  I always root for Goydos when he is in contention.  He is more down to earth than 95% of the pros out there.  Being a substitute teacher will do that to you.  Of course, Faldo was criticizing him for talking to fellow competitor Dustin Johnson back in the fairway.  Faldo, who probably said half a dozen words in his entire career on the golf course, tried to say Goydos made a 9 because he was talking to Johnson.  Frankly we need more players like Goydos out there.  That is what golf is all about!  You compete hard, but at the end of the day you are just having fun with your friends and playing partners.  Why is this so tough?

[JESII]

I am one of those who usually weighs in as to Pebble being overrated (at least when it was 1 or 2...) but #14 was never a reason for that. It is a good strong hole...my undoing was playing there in the US Amateur and hitting a good drive and a good long iron and I think an 8 iron to the middle of the green and then seeing Tiger hit the green in two the following summer...a couple of times I believe...

[Wade Whitehead]

Tim,Goydos' pitch was not played poorly, yet it was doomed. It perhaps could have been played a little better, but he did not deserve that outcome.

Goydos wasn't in position to play at the pin but did anyway.

I still say this may be our first tournament-changing look at the difference new grooves will make.  Boxes would have stopped Goydos' shot.  I expect more pros to make similar mistakes until they decide to concede that certain shots just can't be played anymore.

WW

[JNC Lyon]

Tim,Goydos' pitch was not played poorly, yet it was doomed. It perhaps could have been played a little better, but he did not deserve that outcome.

Goydos wasn't in position to play at the pin but did anyway.

I still say this may be our first tournament-changing look at the difference new grooves will make.  Boxes would have stopped Goydos' shot.  I expect more pros to make similar mistakes until they decide to concede that certain shots just can't be played anymore.

WW

Exactly.  There is a difference between playing a shot poorly and hitting a shot that should not be attempted.  One is a physical mistake, and other is a mental mistake.  Goydos did the latter, made a mental error, and paid the price.  Not only that, but he continued to make mental mistakes after his first bad pitch shot.  Have pros not payed the price for such mental errors before?

[Tim Gavrich]

.

Is this the first year that left side was shaved down?  If they leave it for the US Open and they put the pin where it was today, the USGA runs the risk of a situation like they had at Shinnecock in 2004 if things firm up.

What situation? The best golf tournament with the most exciting interfacing with the gca?

I'm referring to how the USGA lost control of the 7th green that Sunday.  Other than that, I agree with you.

[Mac Plumart]

deja vu

[Adam Clayman]

Mac, In Feb, the green speed was likely 10. Zach Johnson just flat gave up after his fifth shot resulting in a 9.

I just can't believe how many people want these tests to be so rote that everyone should be able to pull it off, every time. The 14th requires every shot to be well thought out and executed. It also brings 'rub of the green' back into golf's vernacular. Something sorely missing from the pampered american golf culture.

[Mac Plumart]

Adam...

did you happen to overhear Bones and Phil's pre-tee shot strategy converstation.  They talked about their entire strategy for the hole in light of current conditions (wind) and how to attack the pin and from where.  Pretty cool stuff.  Let's see if he can execute it now, but I think the sign of good hole is one that requires that type of thought process.

I agree with your post.  Good stuff!

[Phil Benedict]

Zach Johnson made 9 and YE Yang is headed towards an 8 or 9.  It's a stupid green.

[jeffwarne]

Is that egg on Mike Davis' face?

overprepped again
too much shaved areas on 14-hard is one thing--unrecoverable is another

one day perhaps they'll pick a great course and just let the players play it.
Think of the man hours saved by not prepping for several years

I like the hole, even the green, but shaving the bank left and long is excessive

[JNC Lyon]

I saw Zach Johnson make that 9 and I knew there would be a GCA thread about it!!

Phil Benedict, did you see the shots Zach Johnson hit?  If you did, you would probably realize it was completely his fault, not the green's fault.  His first pitch was 20 feet left of where it should be, and he cold bladed his next two.  He deserved to make that 9.

Remember, not everyone makes 8s and 9s.  Here's the deal: hit a solid wedge shot into the green.  Otherwise, you have a tough up and down from short or long of the green.  If you miss the green, you can simply play safe into the heart of the green, take a bogey, and walk to the next tee.  What is the problem with having a hole like this once or twice in a round.  I think it is an awesome green.

I also love that everyone complains that the par fives are too easy for the pros.  Then, when one comes along that is tough, everyone complains and cries "unfair."

One final question: why don't more players hit it in the front bunker? That seems like a pretty straightforward up and in for the pros, but I could be wrong.

[Bill Brightly]

I am reading this thread while watching YE Yang sink a putt for 8. I think it is a great hole for a US Open, but you need to be a little sick to choose this hole to plant your chair

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Is it possible to hit a second shot just short of the front-right of the green and maybe putt up the slope?  I have never been to PB, so I am not sure of the elevation.

Sometimes, playing for par is okay.

[Mac Plumart]

Doug...

I agree with your statement that sometimes playing for par is ok.

It seems on 14 at Pebble Beach you simply want to avoid a blow up.  Plain and simple.  Perhaps Gordon Gecko had it wrong in the context of this hole...greed is NOT good in this instance.

[David_Tepper]

"overprepped again
too much shaved areas on 14-hard is one thing--unrecoverable is another"

I have to agree with Jeff Warne on this one. The 14th green is borderline "goofy golf." The lower, right side of the green is useless and the "safe" landing area on the left side of the green is about the size of a ping-pong table. The shaved-down area on back slope of the green extends much too far.

I have nothing against demanding a near perfect wedge shot on a par-5 to have a shot at making birdie. However, I think that green punishes anything less than that far too severely. It would be interesting to see the stats on how many players that missed the green were able to save par.

It would also be interesting to compare the number of doubles, triples and quads on #14 to the number of birdies.

 

[Mac Plumart]

David...I hear you and all the others about 14 being close to goofy golf.  But isn't the US Open almost always borderline goofy golf?  Think the greens at Shinnecock, I watched a Golf Channel show about the 9 inch rough that Merion had in its last US Open, it just seems like the set up for these championships is kind of goofy.  Isn't that they way it always is?

[Phil McDade]

Amazing green -- I remember reading this thread back in February (when I didn't watch the tourney) and wondering what the big deal was; for all of the Opens and clambakes I've watched at Pebble, I don't ever recall seeing much of 14. A neat strategic hole -- somewhere on another thread (Ran's dissing of #17), Michael Hendren said part of the problem with that hole is, essentially, greed. I got the same feeling watching some of what happened at 14 today -- why do pros insist that every shot they take take aim at the flag, even in with recovery shots? It's the Open -- take your medicine. Or be incredibly thoughtful, like Mickelson was -- in the middle of a great round, probably thinking birdie on a back nine par 5, and going 3-wood/lay-up/wedge/two-putt.

[JC Jones]

I feel like the people posting on here that the hole is "unfair" should read Roger Wolfe's latest thread on "unfair" and in particular, my post.  The fact that we witness and/or can recall a couple of examples where players scored poorly does not mean that the hole is "unfair," generally.  If you look at the stats for #14 at Pebble, there were just as many doubles or worse (35) as there were birdies or better (34).  Moreover, the hole plays easier than #17 and about the same as #9.

Seems to me the hole plays hard but certainly not, "unfair."  The availability of YE Yang or Zach Johnson as examples does not establish the rule.

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