Are Triplexes to blame, or is it cries of unfairness ?

[JC Jones]

Jason Topp,

I was specific in my description.

I said "highly contoured"

You're just refering to contoured.

There is a marked difference.

The difference escapes me

Jason,

Not to pile on, so to speak.  But if you don't see a marked difference in the contours of Pacific Dunes' putting surfaces and those of Kingsley Club's, you're not looking very hard.

Ben,

I believe Jason was referring to the difference between contoured and "highly" contoured.  Questioning whether the adverb created a difference.

With respect to your comment, however, are you saying the greens at Pacific Dunes are more or less undulating/wild than Kingsley Club?

[Ben Sims]

JC,

It is my understanding that Pac Dunes' greens were built at a much subtler contour than could have been built.  Dream Golf expounds on this, as has Tom Doak here on the site in a few places.  My understanding is that Mr. Keiser had a calming effect on Renaissance's otherwise wild green reputation.  Not to say they are flat or boring, but Ballyneal or Barnbougle they are not. 

That said, it is funny to me how little it is mentioned on this site just how envelope-pushing Kingsley Club can be in places.  There is NO green at Pac Dunes that even approaches the insanity of the 13th at Kingsley.  The 9th's closest relative is the 16th at Pac Dunes (not necessarily in contour but in hardest to hit and hold).  The green surrounds are much tougher to manage at Kingsley than at Pac IMO, as evidenced by the approaches and subsequent recoveries around 2, 6, 8, 15 and 18. 

But to answer your question, I am saying that Kingsley is wilder than Pac.

[JC Jones]

JC,

It is my understanding that Pac Dunes' greens were built at a much subtler contour than could have been built.  Dream Golf expounds on this, as has Tom Doak here on the site in a few places.  My understanding is that Mr. Keiser had a calming effect on Renaissance's otherwise wild green reputation.  Not to say they are flat or boring, but Ballyneal or Barnbougle they are not. 

That said, it is funny to me how little it is mentioned on this site just how envelope-pushing Kingsley Club can be in places.  There is NO green at Pac Dunes that even approaches the insanity of the 13th at Kingsley.  The 9th's closest relative is the 16th at Pac Dunes (not necessarily in contour but in hardest to hit and hold).  The green surrounds are much tougher to manage at Kingsley than at Pac IMO, as evidenced by the approaches and subsequent recoveries around 2, 6, 8, 15 and 18. 

But to answer your question, I am saying that Kingsley is wilder than Pac.

I hesitate to use "envelope pushing" with Kingsley only because it has a negative connotation and I find very little negative about Kingsley.  I will agree with you, however, that the greens at Kingsley are more wild than those at Pac Dunes.

Interesting insight re Keiser, I need to read that book.

[Ben Sims]

JC,

It is my understanding that Pac Dunes' greens were built at a much subtler contour than could have been built.  Dream Golf expounds on this, as has Tom Doak here on the site in a few places.  My understanding is that Mr. Keiser had a calming effect on Renaissance's otherwise wild green reputation.  Not to say they are flat or boring, but Ballyneal or Barnbougle they are not. 

That said, it is funny to me how little it is mentioned on this site just how envelope-pushing Kingsley Club can be in places.  There is NO green at Pac Dunes that even approaches the insanity of the 13th at Kingsley.  The 9th's closest relative is the 16th at Pac Dunes (not necessarily in contour but in hardest to hit and hold).  The green surrounds are much tougher to manage at Kingsley than at Pac IMO, as evidenced by the approaches and subsequent recoveries around 2, 6, 8, 15 and 18. 

But to answer your question, I am saying that Kingsley is wilder than Pac.

I hesitate to use "envelope pushing" with Kingsley only because it has a negative connotation and I find very little negative about Kingsley.  I will agree with you, however, that the greens at Kingsley are more wild than those at Pac Dunes.

Interesting insight re Keiser, I need to read that book.

The term wasn't meant to denegrate, on the contrary.  But to call Kingsley Club "par for the course" seems to vastly understate what Mike D did there.  There are many features that are seen on other courses, but not all in one place like at Kingsley.

[JC Jones]

JC,

It is my understanding that Pac Dunes' greens were built at a much subtler contour than could have been built.  Dream Golf expounds on this, as has Tom Doak here on the site in a few places.  My understanding is that Mr. Keiser had a calming effect on Renaissance's otherwise wild green reputation.  Not to say they are flat or boring, but Ballyneal or Barnbougle they are not. 

That said, it is funny to me how little it is mentioned on this site just how envelope-pushing Kingsley Club can be in places.  There is NO green at Pac Dunes that even approaches the insanity of the 13th at Kingsley.  The 9th's closest relative is the 16th at Pac Dunes (not necessarily in contour but in hardest to hit and hold).  The green surrounds are much tougher to manage at Kingsley than at Pac IMO, as evidenced by the approaches and subsequent recoveries around 2, 6, 8, 15 and 18. 

But to answer your question, I am saying that Kingsley is wilder than Pac.

I hesitate to use "envelope pushing" with Kingsley only because it has a negative connotation and I find very little negative about Kingsley.  I will agree with you, however, that the greens at Kingsley are more wild than those at Pac Dunes.

Interesting insight re Keiser, I need to read that book.

The term wasn't meant to denegrate, on the contrary.  But to call Kingsley Club "par for the course" seems to vastly understate what Mike D did there.  There are many features that are seen on other courses, but not all in one place like at Kingsley.

I agree with you 100%, just stating a personal aversion to the term "envelope-pushing."  Kingsley is anything but par for the course and what he did there is nothing short of great.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben Sims,

If I recall correctly, some time agoTom Doak posted that the high winds that blast Bandon was a reason that the greens weren't kept at high speeds.   He may have commented on why there weren't wild contours/slopes on the greens and whether it was wind related, but, I can't recall.

With respect to triplexes, perhaps those who are younger and less experienced don't recall the problems triplexes caused with highly contoured greens when triplexes were first put into use, and, for years thereafter.

When one examines the 1st, 3rd, 6th, 11th, 12th and 15th green at NGLA under tournament conditions, it's clear that those highly contoured greens are compatible with high stimp speeds, provided hole locations aren't goofy.

However, the combination of highly contoured greens and high stimp speeds require more thought and strategizing, along with a deft touch.

Perhaps today's golfers find those tasks too overwhelming.

[JC Jones]

Could it be the architects dont have the imagination to build greens like that?  If an architect is building uninteresting greens simply because the client wants to, what is the point of the architect?  Don't they just become the installer and no longer the creator?

[George_Bahto]

If I recall correctly, some time agoTom Doak posted that the high winds that blast Bandon was a reason that the greens weren't kept at high speeds.   He may have commented on why there weren't wild contours/slopes on the greens and whether it was wind related, but, I can't recall.

Patrick: Tom was telling why the tilt on the Eden at Old Macdonald (#2) was not more severe ..... the wind could often MOVE the ball after i had come to rest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

I should have mentioned it earlier, but, another contributing factor that could have impeded dramatic or highly contoured greens were the early rendition of USGA spec greens with their multi-layering.

USGA green construction gained great/widespread popularity for a good number of years.

I don't know of many architects that would have dismissed building greens to USGA specs when they were at their height in popularity.

So, added to the mix of Triplexes and Unfairness, I have to include USGA spec'd greens.  

[JC Jones]

Who was pushing demand for greens to be at USGA specs?  Consumers?  Seems to be above what would normally be within a golfer's set of demands.

[Kye Goalby]

the photo is 16 green at NB 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

Few if any architects would build other than USGA spec'd greens for liability reasons.

As to demand, almost every club demanded those specs when rebuilding their greens or if new greens were being built.

It was "the" way of the times.

[archie_struthers]

 

Ben Sims answer to the query is quite good......for any of us who has been around for a while we've seen the gradual and relentless pressure for more green speed, As superintendents have gotten more and more talented they have learned how to dry out the greens without worrying about killing them. Fat , slow and  sloppy greens don't endear most superintendents to the membership.

As to design , I'd thik that most architects assume that the greens won't be cut with triplexes as a rule , as almsot all the supers' seem to fear the damage and issues with compaction. Lots of weight on those puppies.

personally , I think we have overreacted to the fear of making greens unfair to a great degree, and most architects err on the safe side. Not a great thing , as most of the great courses in the world tend to have the most outrageous greens!

[Patrick_Mucci]

the photo is 16 green at NB 


To what height are those greens cut ?

Are they cut to heights close to green heights in the U.S. ?

What stimp speeds are typical at NB ?     6 ?  8?  10 ?

Do they ever get to 12 ?

In the times that I played their, I wouldn't say that the greens putted at high stimp speeds, hence, I don't think you can compare the use of a triplex in the UK with Triplex use in the U.S.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Here's what I don't understand.

If a wild green is built as a push up green, altering it would seem to be a relatively easy task.

Hence, while I know cost is a factor, why not opt for the extreme, understanding that you can always soften it.

One of my favorite greens is the 8th at Hidden Creek.

A green with a "highly" contoured feature in the middle of the green.

If it can be done at Hidden Creek, why can't it be done elsewhere ?

Is it a form of "creative fear" on the part of the architect ?

What do they have to lose by making highly contoured greens when those greens can always be modified/softened.

But, if they're great, like # 8 at Hidden Creek, that architectural creativity should serve as a signal to other architects that extremes or quirks are OK, if done properly and functionally.

[Ben Sims]

Ben Sims,

If I recall correctly, some time agoTom Doak posted that the high winds that blast Bandon was a reason that the greens weren't kept at high speeds.   He may have commented on why there weren't wild contours/slopes on the greens and whether it was wind related, but, I can't recall.

Mr. Mucci,

I KNOW I have read somewhere that the overwhelming reason for Pac Dunes' less then severe green contours was Mr. Keiser's fear that severe contours wouldn't be accepted by the casual "Retail Golfer".  Not to say that they weren't fun, but his clientele wouldn't have the required time to get used to them and embrace the quirk.  Or would score poorly based on the severe contour and say it was unfair or tricked up.  Remember, at the time--late 90's--it was still a question as to whether people were going to come to Bandon.

Obviously he has since abandoned this outlook based on the 10 greens I saw last year at Old Mac...yea for us!!

[Eric Smith]

Ben and Pat:

I think you both are right.  On page 234 of Dream Golf, you'll find an explanation that fits both of your assertions.

Mike considered himself a "leveler of greens", an attitude that made perfect sense on a resort course exposed to heavy ocean winds.  The rule of thumb in golf design is that a private course...is the place for severe, quirky greens.  Mike wanted manageable greens....


"Jim and I agreed that we would start building greens with relatively subtle internal contours, and then work more into the later greens as we gained Mike's confidence."

...Mike never abandoned his position on greens, but he did trust his architect, especially when he saw how utterly focused Tom was on making sure that the greens worked...Mike was happy with what he was seeing.

[archie_struthers]

 

interesting that we have a similar philosophy about the ability to build them but we'll have to disagree on #8


there is some nice work on the greens at Hidden Creek, although the 8th....it is too weird for me..

this being said there is some good quirk out there , and it's really fun to work hard to 2-putt ..... #2 at Pine Valley as one of the very best examples of great greenbuilding....you can putt the same putt three different ways , at different speeds and get similar results ....as tough as it is you can always figure a way to two putt ......over the top greens don't leave this as an option no matter what the players skill level  ...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I think you have to consider that # 8 at Hidden Creek is easily drivable, and that having reached the green off the tee, you're putting for an eagle.

And, if you miss the green, it's a kick-on approach where you can use just about any and every club in your bag.

# 2 at Pine Valley is indeed unique.
I think it's spectacular.
My only concern is when they get the green speeds to excessive levels, so fast that putts downhill can't hold the green.

I am surprised that noone seems to have duplicated that green over the last 90 years.

I can't see that green being built with the early USGA specs.

But, I'd like to see more greens in the spirit of # 2 at PV

[archie_struthers]

 


Pine Valley #2  green , even at Crump Cup speeds is  not unputtable as you can play a slingshot into either slope and get it around the hole....having seen it more than a thousand times , I promise you there is always a way  , amazing as the speed can be from
back to front
 
as to # 8 HCCC   the lack of risk reward on the tee shot bothers me even more than the green ....as to the elephant burial ground    why does it matter whether you three putt for par or bogey ??

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

In theory, you should be able to place your approach shot on the proper side of the mound.

Failure to do so, from so close to the green, should result in a difficult two putt.
So, I don't mind if a player fails to do so and three putts.

As to three putting on your eagle attempt.

Luck and blind luck are a factor.

I've driven my ball 8 feet from the hole and I've driven my ball on the opposite side of the mound.
In both instances, I'm happy to be where I am, putting, but, wishing I had been a little luckier.

Which brings up a question for you on # 8.

Should their be a directional marker, ala Prestwick, Old Marsh or NGLA ?

[TEPaul]

"Pine Valley #2  green , even at Crump Cup speeds is  not unputtable as you can play a slingshot into either slope and get it around the hole....having seen it more than a thousand times , I promise you there is always a way"


Archie:

That is true but that putt from way above say a front right pin is the most unusual putt I have ever seen in my life and by a factor of God knows what. I've played a lot of golf and I know PV really well but I only had that particular putt once in my memory. I've always read my own putts but that time I took the advice of my caddie and what he said was way off my instinct and inclination. He called it the "Zorro" putt and he actually told me to putt it at a complete right angle to the line so it would just rock back and forth in that right back to front swale and he even told me where precisely to putt it too on the first "rocking." And so I did---it just rocked back and forth in that swale taking what seemed like a minute to finally get down to the pin which it went into. It was not insignificant that it was in overtime and it won the match with a birdie. If someone were to ask me the most memorable putt in my entire career that one would be first every time. Before that one I had never heard of something called the "Zorro" putt and I can't remember seeing another like it anywhere else.

Frankly, that green, given a particular pin just might be one of the most interesting and exciting in the entire world of golf and architecture. It's amazing to me it's never been copied to my knowledge.

[Mike McGuire]

A photo in a post by Mr. Mucci, Bravo!

For me the threads are much improved with images.

Can we get TEPaul next?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Archie,

I believe that # 2 was one of Crump's favorite holes.

In the other courses he was involved with, did he design any other green remotely close to # 2 ?

It's hard to believe that in 90 years no one has tried to replicate that green.