Are Triplexes to blame, or is it cries of unfairness ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Highly contoured greens seem to be a thing of the past when it comes to new courses.

Even the great "Golden Age" courses have softened their contours, mostly to accomodate higher green speeds.

Courses such as Winged Foot West, Merion and others have either softened their contours/slopes or have contemplated same..

Is it the golfer's aversion to these challenges, the architects inability to incorporate them in an age of advanced speeds, costs to construct and maintain, or a smattering of all of the above.

When I look at some of CBM's, SR's and CB's greens, such as the one below, I long for the challenge, from the tee, for recovery and on the putting surface, that these greens presented.

Will they come back into vogue ?

[Ben Sims]

Pat,

I'm uneducated at best, but my two cents.

1) Over time, maintenance practices get better.

2) Over time, players become accustomed to--and expect--great conditioning.

3) Maintainers learn--through trial and error over decades--that flatter greens are easier to drain and maintain aggressively.

4) Technology comes along--triplexes to name one--that over time, allow for greens to be maintained at stress and high speeds with less effort.

5) Archies--with obvious exceptions--adapt to what the market predominantly dictates (soft yet fast greens).

6) The TOUR naturally prefers these practices as they make their players happy.

7) Self-licking ice cream cone continues.

--EDIT--

Forgot to mention.  Because all of the above are what really cause the issue of boring greens, anything that falls outside of that paradigm is called unfair instead of saying what it really is...a change in expectation over the years based on technology.

Funny thing is, technology should have made our beloved quirky and contoured greens easier to maintain, not cause them to be rarer.

[Bill Rocco]

Highly contoured greens with speeds of anything speeds over 11 can not work. It has been proven with a slope of over 5 degrees they will not stop, thus reducing pin locations. I think many people would call that green you had a picture in your previous post, more goofy than adventous design.

[Pat Burke]

Highly contoured greens with speeds of anything speeds over 11 can not work. It has been proven with a slope of over 5 degrees they will not stop, thus reducing pin locations. I think many people would call that green you had a picture in your previous post, more goofy than adventous design.

uh oh

[Jason Topp]

Are new courses really devoid of contour?  Some new courses I have played in the last few years feature as much or more contour than any others:

Black Mesa
Kingsley Club
Stoneeagle
Pacific Dunes
Sutton Bay
Wilderness at Fortune Bay
The Harvester
Bandon Trails

[Neal_Meagher]

I would say that, yes, triplex mowing has been one of the factors leading to minimized green contours because of scalping issues.  But a highly related issue is that of what triplex mowing has done to the interaction between green surfaces and greenside bunkering.

On almost every course that places budget ahead of architectural worth, triplex mowing is done very, very often between the green and bunkers which means that the closest you will see a "greenside" bunker is about 8-10' or more from the green.  This means that a nearly good shot is caught in this grassy (sometimes close-cut, sometimes hairy) area while a more off-line shot finds the bunker.  While you could argue that many older courses have bunkers that are at least that far from greens, there are many that placed bunkers right at the collar which would really make the bunker a true greenside bunker.

To me, this maintenance "rule" is nearly as insidious as having that oh so American ring of rough between fairways and fairway bunkers.  But, that is for another discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Highly contoured greens with speeds of anything speeds over 11 can not work. It has been proven with a slope of over 5 degrees they will not stop, thus reducing pin locations.


Bill,

Here's where I disagree.

Noone is suggesting that the location of the hole be ON the contour or steep slope leading from the contour, but, we've seen that highly contoured greens at high speeds CAN WORK.   # 1, # 3, # 6, # 12 and # 15 at NGLA are a perfect example.

While it may involve making a larger footpad for the putting surface, contouring and high speeds can co-exist and make golf more interesting.

I think many people would call that green you had a picture in your previous post, more goofy than adventous design.

That's probably because their perspective is contexted solely in the visual, rather than in terms of playability.

Think about the strategy involved when the hole is cut in front of or behind the circular ridge.
Think about it in terms of the approach, recovery and putting.
It's a brilliant feature in terms of what it presents to the golfer...tacticly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason Topp,

I was specific in my description.

I said "highly contoured"

You're just refering to contoured.

There is a marked difference.

[Jason Topp]

Jason Topp,

I was specific in my description.

I said "highly contoured"

You're just refering to contoured.

There is a marked difference.

The difference escapes me

[Ben Sims]

Jason Topp,

I was specific in my description.

I said "highly contoured"

You're just refering to contoured.

There is a marked difference.

The difference escapes me

Jason,

Not to pile on, so to speak.  But if you don't see a marked difference in the contours of Pacific Dunes' putting surfaces and those of Kingsley Club's, you're not looking very hard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neal,

The buffers drive me crazy as well.

Early triplexes, absent floating heads, did a lot of damage to greens and probably altered the contouring as an unintended consequence.

I can't imagine someone riding a triplex and cutting the greens I cited at NGLA.

If a triplex had to mow a green in the same direction every time, because of the contours, would that create grain or other factors that could influence putts ?

A question to architects.

Do you ask the developer/client/superintendent how they will mow their greens BEFORE designing the greens.

If so, what design and construction differences do you apply, based on the method of intended mowing ?

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
Some of the new triplexes cause less damage than walkers and cut as well or better.....but the clean-up cut needs to be done with a walker IMHO...

[Kye Goalby]

[Michael Rossi]

The unit above appears to have roller heads on the unit not cutting heads. 

[Bill Rocco]

Pat,

Looking at that green how many fair pin locations could you use? I see a few in the middle of that area, a few in the back right and that is about it. You have to be able to keep it away from that edge (slope). As a different design it provides that challenge, the lack of pin locations would create boredom from members that play 3 to 4 rounds per week. I know the golfclubatlas is a strong discussion board and if anyone had anymore pictures of this kind of green I think we could all benefit from the pictures. Is this the only one like this?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Looking at that green how many fair pin locations could you use?

"fair" ?

I see an abundance of good hole locations in front, to the side and to the back of the circular ridge.

This is a relatively short par 3.  As such, accuracy should be a requirement on the approach and recovery, with errant shots on the green having to navigate the ridge feature..
 
I see a few in the middle of that area, a few in the back right and that is about it.

You have to be able to keep it away from that edge (slope). As a different design it provides that challenge, the lack of pin locations would create boredom from members that play 3 to 4 rounds per week.

The hole is NOT boring with repeat or constant play.
Look at the steep slopes at the outer edge of the putting surface.
Hole locations near the edge provide plenty of excitement.
The hole has stood the test of 80 years and has fared quite well.

I know the golfclubatlas is a strong discussion board and if anyone had anymore pictures of this kind of green I think we could all benefit from the pictures. Is this the only one like this?

No,  this is a template hole, the short, and there are others like it.
The 7th on the 4th nine at Montclair comes to mind.

Other shorts had different internal contours/configurations and some had the donut or horseshoe ridge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The unit above appears to have roller heads on the unit not cutting heads. 

Michael,

My eyes are bad, but, the unit appears to be exiting the putting surface and heading elsewhere.

[Mike_DeVries]

FWIW, Kingsley is cut exclusively with triplex mowers -- greens seem to being doing pretty good there and scalping is not an issue.  There are spots that are more problematic due to bunker proximity and Dan gives me a hard time about that at times but still gets the job done.

Cheers,
Mike

[Michael Rossi]

The unit above appears to have roller heads on the unit not cutting heads. 

Michael,

My eyes are bad, but, the unit appears to be exiting the putting surface and heading elsewhere.

If it is 16 at Berwick it is still on the green, just headed through the swale in the green to the front of the green.

Might still be on the green, I have no knowledge of the property, but it looks like the heads on the triplex are the true surface roller set up. I do not see a grass catcher or the open face of a cutting head.

EDIT - it does have the cutting heads on it my mistake.

[Tyler Kearns]

l

[Tyler Kearns]

On almost every course that places budget ahead of architectural worth, triplex mowing is done very, very often between the green and bunkers which means that the closest you will see a "greenside" bunker is about 8-10' or more from the green.  This means that a nearly good shot is caught in this grassy (sometimes close-cut, sometimes hairy) area while a more off-line shot finds the bunker.  While you could argue that many older courses have bunkers that are at least that far from greens, there are many that placed bunkers right at the collar which would really make the bunker a true greenside bunker.

Neal,

Wouldn't it be fair to say that many older golf courses that feature greenside bunkers 8-10' from the edge of the green have evolved to this scenario. Triplex mowing of greens often leads to more rounded and smaller surfaces, pulling the green away from the surrounding hazards. It is a slow process, but even an inch per year at these golden age courses would result in 6-7' of shrinkage. Members notice when the maintenance staff scalps the fringe, as it is visually apparent, they are less likely to see when they cheat to the inside of the perimeter to avoid the former scenario, thus there is a natural tendency towards this process.

TK

[Ben Sims]

FWIW, Kingsley is cut exclusively with triplex mowers -- greens seem to being doing pretty good there and scalping is not an issue.  There are spots that are more problematic due to bunker proximity and Dan gives me a hard time about that at times but still gets the job done.

Cheers,
Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the info.  I would never have expected that 7, 9, 13, 15 would be anything but walk mowed. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kye,

Any idea the specifics on the unit being used. I believe that is 16 at North Berwick?

Looks like at Toro 3000. Standard triplex greens mower.

[Ken Moum]

Based on the comments I hear from my friends and acqaintances, I do think the average American golfer views is as a fairness issue--mostly created by their obsession with keeping a card and comparing their score to other scores they've shot.

Just last Monday, a small group of us were having lunch and I said that I liked Faldo's Cottonwood Hills course in Hutchinson, KS, and was disappointed that it appears to be struggling.

All of the other guys (three of them IIRC) who'd played it made a comment about what a ridiculous course it was. Most of the comment focused on the blind tee shots, but the other comment was about the severe green contours. One even said something like, "One green has a slope THIS HIGH (putting his hand up about 6 feet in the air)."

But, for these guys, I think the real genesis is that they grew up playing gold courses that don't have much contour in the greens or fairways. The old quote, "Undulation is the soul of golf," is a foreign to them as something written in Cryllic.

It's true of me as well, but like a lot of golfers on this site, I figured out that uneven ground, whether it's on the greens or the fairways is a lot of fun. But even with that mindset, I have to get out of scoring mode because there are too many big number waiting for a golfer like be on courses like Cottonwood Hills, Prairie Dunes, Dornoch, et. al.   (Of course The Old Course is another matter, it's short enough and wide enough that I feel as if I have a chance.)

If my firneds had grown up playing courses more like Cottonwood, they'd undoubtedly see the game differently, but for that to have happened, the people who laid out courses in this part of the world (northern Minnesota, central South Dakota and northeast Kansas) would have had to move a lot of dirt, and that was NOT happening in the first half of the 20th century, when our courses were being built.

K

[Dave McCollum]

Looks like 16 at NB to me.  When 3 of us played it, the pin was up front.  After holing out, our caddie, a former club captain, told us to drop balls on the back and putt to the front hole.  We each hit two balls, six total.  Not one stayed on the green.  What a hoot.