The History of Pocono Manor

[TEPaul]

Since we have just about every drawing extant of just about every course Flynn did we are aware of how often he drew mounds as well as mounds with bunkers in them. It appears a significant number of them were either not built or didn't last all that long. Some examples we've seen were at Sunnehanna and to the left of Merion's #8 green and behind #5 green. Ross occasionally did the same thing but it seems most of his haven't survived. Some examples of Ross's were at Riverton.

[TEPaul]

"...to my knowledge Travis wasn't involved with Flynn at PV,"



What do you think Travis did at Pine Valley that was actually built? What do you think Flynn did at Pine Valley?

I remind you that both have been on this website on various threads through the years. Apparently you must have missed that information too or misunderstood it as well.

If you're so interested in Flynn and the details of his career I suggest you do your own research from now on. We've certainly done it comprehensively in the last ten years and we've offered it on here but you don't seem inclined to accept much or any of it. It seems in just about every instance you question it or disagree with it and almost always with nothing constructive to offer in its place. If you have something to offer that might be something in the way of credible refutation then we'd be glad to see it and consider it but your constant stream of "twenty questions" with everything we offer has not been and is not particularly productive and generally seems to only serve to waste everyone's time.

I'm sure everyone is interested in the truth about any of these courses or architects but just automatically disagreeing with the research of others time after time with nothing to offer in its place which seems to be your constant modus operandi on this website hasn't done much after all these years and I doubt it ever will.

Most of us think you probably do it just to try to prove someone or anyone wrong about something basically to make yourself look like a better researcher than others on here. Again, the way you go about it is generally a waste of everyone's time and not as productive as most of us would like to be.

[Mark Molyneux]

"Are you referring to the first nine or the second nine at Pocono?"

Hi Tom!
I was referring to the first nine at Pocono Manor when I said something about Ross not arriving until 5 or 6 years later. That would put his entry into the Pocono Region at 1917 or 1918. And just for the sake of clarity, Donald only gets credit for nine holes at Elkview but then he gets credit for all 27 at Buck Hill Falls in Brad Klein's Discovering DR book. I'm torn by the attribution to Ross or White on Buck Hill. I had never heard anything other than "Donald Ross" when I visited Buck Hill but as a lot of contributors have suggested, the Ross name was a powerful marketing tool.     

[John Foley]

Since we have just about every drawing extant of just about every course Flynn did we are aware of how often he drew mounds as well as mounds with bunkers in them. It appears a significant number of them were either not built or didn't last all that long.

Tom - Aren't there many bunkers at Kittansett this way? Incorporated into the boulder mounds that we're built up during construction?

Do Flynn's individual hole drawings show this?

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
I agree with you. It is very unlikely Ross was designing anything in Pa. in the 1900s. And you're right Ross was definitely active in the region around 1916-17.

Mike
I'm very interested in what Flynn was designing, as opposed to building, in the teens and the article or articles you spoke of.

Wayne claims the earliest two drawings he has for Flynn are Pocono and Lancaster, and he dates them both to circa 1920. Assuming he has the dates correct wouldn't it be useful to compare those two drawings?

[Mike Cirba]

Here's the split fairway at Pocono next to a blowup of the split fairway hole Flynn designed for Kittansett.





I don't have anything available from Lancaster during this time period....this one is from the 1930s on Ran's Lancaster writeup;

[Mike Cirba]

Here's Ross's proposed changes to the 2nd and 6th holes at Seaview.   One marked difference seems to be the use of letters vs numbers and another seems to be the precise depth of "sand pits" being identified;






Does anyone have any other Ross drawings from around 1920 they can add here?   Something just occurred to me as a possibility.

[TEPaul]

"Tom - Aren't there many bunkers at Kittansett this way? Incorporated into the boulder mounds that we're built up during construction?
Do Flynn's individual hole drawings show this?"



John:

They do. There were a number of specific features called for on those Kittansett hole by hole drawings and lettered explanatory notes on the right side---bunkers, waste sand areas with rough islands, rough ridges with sand bunkers on top, sand mounds etc, etc. Flynn's construction drawings were remarkably detailed and apparently the company pretty much demanded the crew follow them exactly (if they were the ones chosen to get built). Flynn did a number of different drawing iterations on the same holes on some of his projects----Shinnecock being a decent example. He did a number of separated or interrupted fairways on some projects and even advertized them occasionally. Some were done but it seems many weren't or else they didn't last very long---including on a few holes of Kittansett.

One of the initial problems with Kittansett was apparently early on no one really understood how much loose rock there was underneath preconstruction grade and so a lot of the features were built above natural grade. At first the under-grade rock problem looked like it might significantly bust the budget but obviously the above grade feature building was the clever fix. Still today it gives the course a pretty interesting, unique and cool look.

[TEPaul]

“In the early 20s wasn't Flynn primarily a construction man, constructing courses like Westchester, Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, and PV for Travis, Alison and others?”


“Flynn constructed Westchester with Travis, to my knowledge Travis wasn't involved with Flynn at PV, Burning Tree or Chevy Chase.”




Looking at the above remarks it appears you’re either generally confused about Flynn or you contradicted yourself in less than 12 hours. I suppose, in these cases, that common qualifier of yours----eg ‘to my knowledge’ comes with quite a lack of accuracy and an inherent lack of credibility.

But we are glad you'd like to learn more about the details of William Flynn's career.

[Chris_Blakely]

"Are you referring to the first nine or the second nine at Pocono?"

Hi Tom!
I was referring to the first nine at Pocono Manor when I said something about Ross not arriving until 5 or 6 years later. That would put his entry into the Pocono Region at 1917 or 1918. And just for the sake of clarity, Donald only gets credit for nine holes at Elkview but then he gets credit for all 27 at Buck Hill Falls in Brad Klein's Discovering DR book. I'm torn by the attribution to Ross or White on Buck Hill. I had never heard anything other than "Donald Ross" when I visited Buck Hill but as a lot of contributors have suggested, the Ross name was a powerful marketing tool.     

I was always of the understanding that Robert White was responsible for the Red nine at Buck Hill Falls GC and Dionald Ross was responsible for the White and Blue.  This would match with what is on the ground there as the green pads on the Red are different than the White and Blue.

Chris

[Tom MacWood]

Here's the split fairway at Pocono next to a blowup of the split fairway hole Flynn designed for Kittansett.





I don't have anything available from Lancaster during this time period....this one is from the 1930s on Ran's Lancaster writeup;

Flynn did utilize the segregated fairway often, but he wasn't the only one, especially on a hilly site. Ross, Travis, Emmet, Tilly and others used segregated fairways. Humps and hollow was a feature and term often used by Travis.

How were you able to date the drawing?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom - Aren't there many bunkers at Kittansett this way? Incorporated into the boulder mounds that we're built up during construction?

Do Flynn's individual hole drawings show this?

The hole drawing of Kittansett that Mike posted does not appear to have the mounding incorporated with the bunkers. Many of those odd bolder mounds were likely 'designed' in the field and not on paper.

And the jury is out on exactly who did what at Kittansett, you have Hood, Wilson and Flynn on all involved. Which brings up an interesting question - has anyone seen a Wilson drawing, did he ever draw? I think there is a 50/50 chance the courses TEP/Wayne credit to Flynn in the teens are Wilson designs or someone else's designs built by Flynn. 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Before you run off into the next round of 20 questions designed to cast doubt amongst the peripherally interested and/or less well-informed regarding the legacy and ability anyone in Philadelphia involved in architecture, it might be time for a little humility.

You might say, "gee...I was wrong.   I thought that drawing looked like Ross, but I can now see that whoever drew the Kittansett drawing is the same one who drew the holes at Pocono Manor."

It's good for the soul.

[John Foley]

Tom - Aren't there many bunkers at Kittansett this way? Incorporated into the boulder mounds that we're built up during construction?

Do Flynn's individual hole drawings show this?

The hole drawing of Kittansett that Mike posted does not appear to have the mounding incorporated with the bunkers. Many of those odd bolder mounds were likely 'designed' in the field and not on paper.

And the jury is out on exactly who did what at Kittansett, you have Hood, Wilson and Flynn on all involved. Which brings up an interesting question - has anyone seen a Wilson drawing, did he ever draw? I think there is a 50/50 chance the courses TEP/Wayne credit to Flynn in the teens are Wilson designs or someone else's designs built by Flynn. 

Tom - I do not think the 2nd hole at Kittansett had any of the mounds oncorporated w/ bunkers. I know they we're there on #5, #7, #10, #12, #12 & #14 (crazy mound / bunker field left of the green which is very cool!!) #16 & #17. On those hole the feature really stands out.

[TEPaul]

"The hole drawing of Kittansett that Mike posted does not appear to have the mounding incorporated with the bunkers. Many of those odd bolder mounds were likely 'designed' in the field and not on paper."



What we are talking about is what exactly was called for on Flynn's individual hole drawings of Kittansett. I believe we have app. 15 of them on that course. I flipped through them this morning and it looks like he called for some sand pockets or bunkers in some "rough" mounds on holes #6 and #16.




"And the jury is out on exactly who did what at Kittansett, you have Hood, Wilson and Flynn on all involved. Which brings up an interesting question - has anyone seen a Wilson drawing, did he ever draw? I think there is a 50/50 chance the courses TEP/Wayne credit to Flynn in the teens are Wilson designs or someone else's designs built by Flynn."


Who's the "jury?" 

I think Kittansett is pretty comfortable now with what Flynn did there particularly since they were provided about six years ago with Flynn's hole by hole drawings and they were able to compare them to the course and how it was built.

What we know of Wilson's involvement at Kittansett is only that he wrote Piper or Oakley that he'd spent two days at Kittansett. That seemingly wouldn't have been unusual for Wilson to go there as he was known to not infrequently vacation in Glouster, Mass.

I have never heard of anyone who has ever seen a drawing by Hugh Wilson other than the sketches and such Richard Francis mentioned that Wilson brought back from holes he had looked at abroad. I know I've never seen a drawing by Wilson and either has Wayne Morrison. All that we know is Wilson and Flynn worked together on various architecture, certainly the Merions. Exactly how they worked together we just don't know because as far as we can tell no one ever recorded it which is generally true of people working together in the field or otherwise.

But there seems to be at least one research zealot on here who has never been able to understand or appreciate that very well. This is exactly what we told him on the first page of a thread he put on here ("Re: Macdonald and Merion") back in Feb. 2003 which essentially started these lagubrious so-called "Merion and Wilson threads" that've lasted for about seven years now with the endless 20 question responses and the tendency to take issue with most all the information we provide.

We told him the same thing back then I'm telling him now----those kinds of details with and between Wilson and Flynn were just never recorded by either of them. He didn't listen then and he apparently isn't listening now. And after seven years of this constantly, I suppose he never will.   

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Before you run off into the next round of 20 questions designed to cast doubt amongst the peripherally interested and/or less well-informed regarding the legacy and ability anyone in Philadelphia involved in architecture, it might be time for a little humility.

You might say, "gee...I was wrong.   I thought that drawing looked like Ross, but I can now see that whoever drew the Kittansett drawing is the same one who drew the holes at Pocono Manor."

It's good for the soul.

There is no doubt there are similarities with the first two drawings. The tufts of grass in the rough and the yardage numbering along the side are very similar. But there are also some distinct differences. The Pocono drawing is much more polished. The lettering (A, B, C) under the explanatory notes is completely different, as is the bunkering style and the introduction of mounding. The flag in the green looks different too. I don't believe they were drawn by the same person, and more importantly I say it is very unlikely Flynn designed Pocono.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

Before you run off into the next round of 20 questions designed to cast doubt amongst the peripherally interested and/or less well-informed regarding the legacy and ability anyone in Philadelphia involved in architecture, it might be time for a little humility.

You might say, "gee...I was wrong.   I thought that drawing looked like Ross, but I can now see that whoever drew the Kittansett drawing is the same one who drew the holes at Pocono Manor."

It's good for the soul.

There is no doubt there are similarities with the first two drawings. The tufts of grass in the rough and the yardage numbering along the side are very similar. But there are also some distinct differences. The Pocono drawing is much more polished. The lettering (A, B, C) under the explanatory notes is completely different, as is the bunkering style and the introduction of mounding. The flag in the green looks different too. I don't believe they were drawn by the same person, and more importantly I say it is very unlikely Flynn designed Pocono.

Tom:

The yardages along the side are not similar. In the Ross plans, he uses a lower-case "y" and in the Pocono plans an upper-case "Y" is used. In the interest of objectivity, I don't see how it is unlikely that Flynn designed Pocono. Would you mind outlining the evidence such that one can see where the preponderance lie?

[Tom MacWood]

You don't think the yardage numbers are similar with these two drawings?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Before you leap off that credibility cliff, you should note that I first blew up (distorted) the image I had of Kittansett about 30%, and then another 50% to match the sizes close enough for comparison here.

That simple fact is likely the reason that the Pocono drawing is much more "polished", as you stated it, and perhaps also the reason for the flagstick appearance.   I wasn't expecting that third degree and microscopic analysis when I posted the pictures and stated that they were William Flynn.....Wayne has about another 30 or so from Flynn's files, but I guess I should know better around here.

In any case, I'm sure you'll leap anyway, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering trying to provide you with an excuse for the distortion evident in that blown-up image.

Perhaps Flynn just needed to sharpen his pencil on the second one and his kid stuck gum in the sharpener?   This place is a nuthouse sometimes....Too funny!!!   

[Kyle Harris]

They are.

I'm pointing out the difference between the Ross drawings and the Flynn drawings. This is what I thought you were referring to.

[Tom MacWood]

What Ross drawings?

[Kyle Harris]

What Ross drawings?

The Seaview ones posted by Mike in the first page.

[Tom MacWood]

Kyle
The majority of Ross plans were drawn by Walter Johnson; the majority of Flynn plans were drawn by Nichols; other architects had similar arrangements with draftsmen.

Johnson and Nichols' drawings are fairly easy to identify, but are you able to determine among the other drawings which is Flynn, Wilson, Ross, Hatch, McGovern, Smith, Travis, Park or some anonymous draftsmen?

[Mike Cirba]

Ok...I'm a reasonable guy, a helluva a nice, understanding, sympathetic, and generous guy truth be told, but someone here, at some point, has to call Bullshit.  

Here's what I'm hearing at this point of the conversation.   How about you?

http://tinyurl.com/ArchitectDrawings

[Tom MacWood]

Ok...I'm a reasonable guy, a helluva a nice, understanding, sympathetic, and generous guy truth be told, but someone here, at some point, has to call Bullshit.  

Here's what I'm hearing at this point of the conversation.   How about you?

http://tinyurl.com/ArchitectDrawings

Were you not aware of Johnson and Nichols?