[paul cowley]

?

[Tom_Doak]

You are just trying to get one of those "game vs. sport" posts going where somebody will quote Max Behr, aren't you?

I think golf courses here should do more to promote match play.  It would speed up play and (hopefully) get people a bit less focused on their own score.  Maybe courses could do a promotion where one day a week it's match play only -- no scorecards handed out, the pro makes up the games, and if you show up by yourself they pair you up.

[Rob Rigg]

I think the laundry list of things that can be done should start with getting people playing the "right" tees - it will make each round much more enjoyable

If you do #1 - then pace of play will improve - which also makes a round much more enjoyable.

I agree with Tom on promoting match play - unfortunately the USGA (at least via the state associations) "mandates" that people submit scores everytime they play in season in the US - which adds significantly to the time it takes to play a round.

[Bob_Huntley]

I watched several four--balls tee off last Saturday. Every player took a Mulligan. Every player insisted that they posted their score.


The GHIN is a joke and a fraudulent service for a grab at annual fees for the use of a handicap service which could be done with a simple computer program by any club in the country.

To see some hack putting out for a triple bogey is an abomination.

Bob 

[Garland Bayley]

I think the laundry list of things that can be done should start with getting people playing the "right" tees - it will make each round much more enjoyable

If you do #1 - then pace of play will improve - which also makes a round much more enjoyable.

I agree with Tom on promoting match play - unfortunately the USGA (at least via the state associations) "mandates" that people submit scores everytime they play in season in the US - which adds significantly to the time it takes to play a round.

Now Rob, you know I struggle at playing to the level of almost everyone on this site, except for Kalen Braley of course. But I can tee it up with these low handicappers playing the back tees and end up waiting on them most of the round.

It's not the tees that you play from that makes for long rounds, it's how you play from the tees, i.e., quickly!

[Rob Rigg]

Garland,

You are correct - but I am making a general comment.

The Blues at Ghost Creek are 6,500 and the Whites are about 6,000 - I cannot tell you how many people I see out there who would have a lot more fun from the whites than they do from the blues - while also allowing the "fast players" to keep my sanity. 5+ hours rounds are normal during the summer - which is ridiculous. Between looking for lost balls and putting out it is a real ordeal.

Half of these guys are probably playing the blues because it is "tougher" based on the scorecard and they want to mark down their 95 from the "hard" tees instead of something lower from the "easy" tees? I just don't get it - I'd take an 88 from the whites any day of the week.

Obviously if you play quickly, then you can play any tees faster than the guys who are taking notes on pace of play from someone like JB Holmes (8 practice swings - WTF!?!?!), but in general, playing the appropriate tees will lead to faster rounds for everyone.

When a "fast" foursome walks eighteen in 3:30 and a "slow" foursome plays in 5:30 - we have a serious issue that needs to be solved if the game is going to remain relevant in this country (as if we don't all know that already).

[Sean_A]

I think the laundry list of things that can be done should start with getting people playing the "right" tees - it will make each round much more enjoyable

If you do #1 - then pace of play will improve - which also makes a round much more enjoyable.

I agree with Tom on promoting match play - unfortunately the USGA (at least via the state associations) "mandates" that people submit scores everytime they play in season in the US - which adds significantly to the time it takes to play a round.

Now Rob, you know I struggle at playing to the level of almost everyone on this site, except for Kalen Braley of course. But I can tee it up with these low handicappers playing the back tees and end up waiting on them most of the round.

It's not the tees that you play from that makes for long rounds, it's how you play from the tees, i.e., quickly!

Garland

I think you are dead wrong.  Playing from further back has to take longer unless the course is designed specifically to the back tees - which to be honest, I don't think I have ever seen.  To state you can step back and still wait is meaningless because those chaps could be slow and for sure, you would nearly always be quicker from forward tees.  Jeepers, often times I think this is the worst part of technology.  Guys who don't belong on 6700 yard tees now step back to 7000 yard tees - great.  There is a reason golf is quicker in the UK and a main one is players are compelled to play from shorter tees with tees closer to greens.  Its a no brainer, less walking means faster golf.

Ciao     

[Jon Wiggett]

I agree with Tom on promoting match play - unfortunately the USGA (at least via the state associations) "mandates" that people submit scores everytime they play in season in the US - which adds significantly to the time it takes to play a round.

I agree with Rob,

golf is a social game that should be enjoyed. There is nothing better than going out for a quick round of golf with a couple of good golfing buddies. That the USGA (via the state associations) mandates (force) the golfer to return a card each time seems to shows little understanding about what makes the game of golf so enjoyable to so many players for so many generations.

Play R&A rules gentlemen as was originally intended

[Kyle Harris]

I'd like to see some good hard data that it's Stroke v. Match Play that has an impact on speed of play outside of the rather specious reasoning that it would speed up play since one could pick up their ball once the opponent has the hole won or concedes the putt.

I don't want anecdote. I want data.

I'll wait.

*crickets*

Guess what, we need to be teaching pace of play behavior - the format has nothing to do with it.

1. Play the proper tee
2. Focus on advancing the game within your group (this is huge, I firmly believe that all pace of play has to do with the focus of the player in being attentive and ready)
3. Putt until the ball is holed unless one would substantially disrupt another's line of putt.
4. WALK

[Sean_A]

Kyle

Do you really need data to show that matchplay is quicker than medal - at least if there are more than two players?  I certainly don't and I am 100% convinced that matchplay is quicker.  Why?  I have played the game for a great many years so I don't need some sort of twisted data (for surely this is exactly what it would be to show medal is quicker than matchplay) to make a case.  Jeepers, I don't believe it is even close Kyle.  In fact, I would say a betterball can get around quicker than a 3ball playing medal. 

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Stroke, Match play it in real terms does not really matter nor do I believe the Tee selections. What does matters is that you are willing to play the game. That you understand that others are also playing in front and well as behind you. If the course is quiet and no sign of a following player(s) then you have more time, however if you are playing golf why do you need more time.
Some quick suggestions for both golfers and Designers alike. 

Golfers
Walk to understand the intricacies of the golf course you are playing.
Do not use distance aids of any sorts (No pacing, fumbling with yardage books or electronic aids)
Less formality when addressing the ball you are not being Knighted and ban practice swings
Be aware of Course Etiquette and allow faster groups to play through
Enjoy the game with its challenges by disposing of all the distracting mental and equipment clutter you have accumulated over the last 10 years or so. 

Designers
Persuade your clients to select the site that will be suitable for golf thus allowing it to blend into the surround landscape. In others words set the right mood for a game of golf
Try and retain much of the Nature of the site while selecting the hazards thus incorporate the natural.
Do not forget that to have a fully functional strategic course you must also flex the stick and build up the penal aspects as well. Strategic is dead in the water without its penal aspect putting forward the alternatives.
No Island Greens, courses with these features are instantly restricted to the better player while proving that the designer has run out of ideas.
Oh yes please do not waste time and precious money in faking or aging a course.

Note
Designers who need a blank canvas, by that I mean the land has first to be stripped of all Nature’s features leaving a really blank canvas need not apply and should seek employment else where. If you are unable to work with what you are originally given then I believe we have the right to question you real design abilities when it come to laying out a golf course. That’s my opinion but others may well disagree. However with your ideas on board we have no chance of either getting back or moving forward when related them to golf.   

Melvyn

PS Sean should refrain from delaying others with all his photos he takes on a golf course, yet I do so enjoy his reports that I feel we should give him a dispensation allowing him to play at his pace (by that I mean walking pace that his great age and weight of golfing knowledge currently allows). I expect that means he will be getting slower as the years start to weigh him down further – Ladies Tees soon then Sean?. 

[Brent Hutto]

The GHIN is a joke and a fraudulent service for a grab at annual fees for the use of a handicap service which could be done with a simple computer program by any club in the country.

To see some hack putting out for a triple bogey is an abomination.

What Bob said. The stroke-play-plus-mulligans-and-gimmes mentality would not disappear overnight if you eliminated the handicap system but I suspect it would eventually evolve away from the Every Stroke is Sacred (except for mulligans, gimmes, free drops and rolling the ball out of bad lies) and back toward playing a fair match against an opponent. Not going to happen but we can dream.

[Sean_A]

Stroke, Match play it in real terms does not really matter nor do I believe the Tee selections. What does matters is that you are willing to play the game. That you understand that others are also playing in front and well as behind you. If the course is quiet and no sign of a following player(s) then you have more time, however if you are playing golf why do you need more time.
Some quick suggestions for both golfers and Designers alike. 

Golfers
Walk to understand the intricacies of the golf course you are playing.
Do not use distance aids of any sorts (No pacing, fumbling with yardage books or electronic aids)
Less formality when addressing the ball you are not being Knighted and ban practice swings
Be aware of Course Etiquette and allow faster groups to play through
Enjoy the game with its challenges by disposing of all the distracting mental and equipment clutter you have accumulated over the last 10 years or so. 

Designers
Persuade your clients to select the site that will be suitable for golf thus allowing it to blend into the surround landscape. In others words set the right mood for a game of golf
Try and retain much of the Nature of the site while selecting the hazards thus incorporate the natural.
Do not forget that to have a fully functional strategic course you must also flex the stick and build up the penal aspects as well. Strategic is dead in the water without its penal aspect putting forward the alternatives.
No Island Greens, courses with these features are instantly restricted to the better player while proving that the designer has run out of ideas.
Oh yes please do not waste time and precious money in faking or aging a course.

Note
Designers who need a blank canvas, by that I mean the land has first to be stripped of all Nature’s features leaving a really blank canvas need not apply and should seek employment else where. If you are unable to work with what you are originally given then I believe we have the right to question you real design abilities when it come to laying out a golf course. That’s my opinion but others may well disagree. However with your ideas on board we have no chance of either getting back or moving forward when related them to golf.   

Melvyn

PS Sean should refrain from delaying others with all his photos he takes on a golf course, yet I do so enjoy his reports that I feel we should give him a dispensation allowing him to play at his pace (by that I mean walking pace that his great age and weight of golfing knowledge currently allows). I expect that means he will be getting slower as the years start to weigh him down further – Ladies Tees soon then Sean?. 

Melvyn

I am glad you enjoy the photo tours.  I never ask the permission of playing partners as I get the result I want even if it means I have to apologize later.

There have been many a time when I spied the walk to the men's tee, then glanced at the ladies tee for an alternative.  A significant percentage of that time I have indeed teed it with the no show ladies.  I would also say that in the winter I play a decent number of ladies tees.  I do wish they would ban the names ladies and men's and just have the tees setting there to choose from.  I am sure more folks would play further forward if this were the case.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Hold all junior tournaments at match play...Not only will this speed up play but will get more kids to enjoy the game and thereby grow it...

[David Whitmer]

I get a kick out of, but at the same time it drives me nuts when, a guy says something to the effect of, "He should play from a shorter tee...he'll have more fun." Or, "He should play match play...he'll have more fun."

I've said this here before regarding choosing tees to play from, but why would anyone presume to tell someone else what his definition of "fun" should be?

I personally don't think the game of golf is broken, or needs fixing. I know that match play is very popular in the UK, but here in the States the game has evolved into a medal play, post-a-score-and-see-how-good-you-are game. If people here think golf needs fixing, they will take it upon themselves to play match play, or play from a forward set of tees. Any set of rules designed to tell a guy how to have fun is wrong, in my opinion.

I agree with what Garland said...I don't care what game a guy plays or what set of tees he chooses to play. If you play a round in a respectable amount of time, that's all I can ask of any of my fellow golfers who I am sharing the course with. 

[Brent Hutto]

I've said this here before regarding choosing tees to play from, but why would anyone presume to tell someone else what his definition of "fun" should be?

I would never venture a guess as to why someone else finds something fun or not. I just know that I would enjoy the game more if the guys ahead of me weren't dinking around for 4 hours pretending they're in the US Open.

...here in the States the game has evolved into a medal play, post-a-score-and-see-how-good-you-are game.

Except it is "how good you are" while getting do-overs on your bad tee shots, being "conceded" putts by people you're not in a match with and taking free drops that are generous by even PGA Tour standards. That's not "how good you are" that is "how good you imagine you are while jerking off". For four hours.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
From seeing hundreds of high school matches played using both formats I can reliably say that it's about a 20 to 30 minute difference between them for 9 holes, with match play being the faster.

Paul,
Golf might get back on a track when it no longer seems OK for a public golf course to charge hundreds of dollars for a round. The  pricing at some golf courses has distorted the idea of 'game' and turned it into an 'experience'.

[TEPaul]

"You are just trying to get one of those "game vs. sport" posts going where somebody will quote Max Behr, aren't you?"



TomD:

I think you may be exactly right about that. I think I recall I provided Paul "The Re-enacting" Cowley with a complete set of Max Behr articles and it appears he has not been the same since.

However, he should have entitled this thread "Re: How do we get golf back to the Sport......?"


And so I shall tell you how Max Behr would suggest that we post-diluvian shit-for-brains golfers of today do just that-----eg he would suggest for at least a year minimum all American golfers instead of bringing their golf clubs to their courses must bring fishing poles or shot guns or mountain gear to their courses and proceed on them accordingly! Only then will they begin to get some sense of the importance of Nature's necessary part in golf architecture and the fact that in golf the ball is not vied for between human opponents as it is in all other stick and ball games extant!  

By the way, Tom, did you know that Max Behr wrote a letter in the early 1920s saying that he felt what Hugh Wilson had done at Merion East had essentially saved mankind?

You think I'm kidding about that don't you? I guarantee you I'm not.

[Mac Plumart]

A lot of post on here about pace of play, so for sure that is an issue with the Game.

But per Paul's title..."How do we get golf back to the Game..." I think getting away from a PGA Tour centric view of golf.  The PGA Tour is not all that golf is.  Golf is a game, a past time, and in my opinion meant to be fun.  I think far to many people take it far to seriously and that makes it not fun.

Along these lines, there are a lot of comments on here about tournaments, stroke play, match play.  Why does golf have to be tournament centric?  Doesn't that put golf's focus on the tournament rather than the Game?

I've been playing only a small amount of time and I've played in three tournaments.  I won two of them on a net basis.  BUT these were very far removed from the most enjoyable times I've had on a golf course.  In fact, they are some of the most "un-fun" times I've had on a course.

I've had a lot of fun walking a course all by myself, playing with my 5 year old son, or just playing a round of golf with friends but no man vs. man competition...just me vs. course and my friends vs. course.

So, how do we get golf back to focusing on th game?  Diminish the PGA Tour's importance and down play the idea that "real" golfer's play in tournamnets.

[Kyle Henderson]

I agree with Tom on promoting match play - unfortunately the USGA (at least via the state associations) "mandates" that people submit scores everytime they play in season in the US - which adds significantly to the time it takes to play a round.

I have a tough time following that mandate at place like Ballyneal, where one can tee it up from wherever they like, so long as they have the honor in their match.

[TEPaul]

Do you people realize if some client was willing to just turn Paul Cowley loose on a good site without attaching any strings or limitations to his imagination we just may be treated to a course that could produce the game or sport or however you want to define it the likes of which would be unspeakably cool and funner and funnest!?! Would it be something like some point and time from the old days? Oh Yeah, what do you expect from a guy who thinks he's the reincarnation of General Grant or General Sherman? Perhaps even the incomparable defensively brilliant General Robert E. Lee and even with his outriding cavalry "angles of charm" flanker Gen Jeb Stuart!

[paul cowley]

damn, I forgot we did this until my friend Peter Pallotta reminded me. I've been working on this and similar concepts over the years, .....most are some ancillary amenity that are tied to Resorts.....wish a real neighborhood model could be built....cheap and play would be six bucks, and two bucks to under 18, and free for under ten years or something like that.

But I know it really can't happen, and that I'm just dreaming about my own muny youth that's long past.
Anyway, this article just appeared on pgatour.com

 "Love's unique Origins course to showcase Sorenstam event
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PGA TOUR star Davis Love III created Origins Golf Club so that entire families could have fun on a short course.
  
Feb. 8, 2010
By Helen Ross, PGATOUR.COM Chief of Correspondents
Annika Sorenstam has always been interested in teaching children the importance of a healthy and active lifestyle through fitness, nutrition and the game of golf.

So what better place for the World Golf Hall of Fame member to stage part of the ANNIKA Experience at Watersound than at the Origins Golf Club, a unique and challenging short course facility designed by Davis Love III?

 
Origins at a glance
OVERVIEW: Plays as a six-hole regulation course, a nine-hole executive course or a 10-hole par-3 course between 1,600 and 1,800 yards. Conceptually, designed to encourage junior golfers, beginners and families to participate in the game of golf and remain engaged throughout their recreational lives. Consistent with the Scottish origins of the game, in which six, nine and 12-hole courses were commonplace. Golf made simple and fun, again, yet challenging enough to retain the interest of avid players.
SPECIFICS: Regulation six-hole course plays as three par 3s, two par 4s and one par 5; First hole, 425-yard par-4; second, 150-yard par-3; third, 160-yard par-3, fourth, 350-yard par-4, fifth, 130-yard par-3, sixth, 510-yard par-5. The nine-hole executive course consists of three par 4s and six par 3s. As a signature design element, the third hole features a bunker in the middle of the green. Converts to a 10-hole par-3 course via the use of alternate tee boxes and five smaller intermediate greens.
GRASS: SeaIsle Supreme Paspalum for greens, fairways and tees.
MORE: For more information, click here.
 

The ANNIKA Experience will be held Feb. 19-20 and features a golf match between Sorenstam and soccer great Mia Hamm at the Origins, which is located on Florida's Emerald Coast about 90 minutes from Panama City. The two will also trade comfort zones and participate in a Soccer Skills Challenge.

The Origins can be played as a regulation six-hole course, a nine-hole executive course or a 10-hole par-3 course -- depending on what tees are used and whether any auxilary greens come into play. The total distance of the course is approximately 1,800 yards.

The regulation course consists of a trio of par 3s, two par 4s and one par 5. The par 3s are 150, 160 and 130 yards while the two par 4s play to 425 and 350. The par 5 is the sixth and final hole of the loop and is 510 yards long.

"We wanted it more as a park setting where people could feel like they could go out and play and walk and take the kids," Love said. "It wasn't high-pressure golf. It wasn't, 'I have to go play 18 holes on a big, hard golf course.' (It was) more just a fun place for the community to get out and just hit it around or learn to play or take the kids and just play a few holes -- and walk."

Love is proud of the variety offered by the Origins, which was developed by The St. Joe Company. He steered the firm away from a straight executive course, which is usually the first thought when faced with such a finite piece of property, and the result is an extremely playable, kid-friendly layout that can still challenge all talent levels.

"We need to speed the game up so people can go out in the afternoon and say, 'Hey, this is fun, I went around twice and played six holes and got my exercise and got to hit some balls,' " Love said. "I think we've got to get walking more into it -- and kids -- and make it easy, not hard."

Love said his design company worked on a similar project at Sea Island Resort for its Lodge at Cabin Bluff. The three-hole loop proved so popular that another three holes had to be added. Love's design company has also created similar projects for learning centers so that there are more options than just hitting practice balls on the range..

"Obviously, in a good economy, a hotel that didn't have room for nine full holes or somebody's corporate retreat or hunting places, things like that, it would be a neat thing to do just to have a way to go out and play for a little while and not take four hours to play golf," Love said.

The match between Sorenstam and Hamm will showcase the facility. The two-day ANNIKA Experience benefits local charities, health organizations and the ANNIKA Foundation. Also on tap are golf children's fitness clinics, a charity golf tournament, luncheon and food-and-wine reception.

The two local soccer clubs participating in the Soccer Skills Challenge will also raise money for the Mia Hamm Foundation by auctioning off 14 spots to play with the two legends. The Foundation raises awareness about bone marrow transplant and honors Hamm's brother Garrett, who died from complications of the disease.

  

[David Whitmer]

I've said this here before regarding choosing tees to play from, but why would anyone presume to tell someone else what his definition of "fun" should be?

I would never venture a guess as to why someone else finds something fun or not. I just know that I would enjoy the game more if the guys ahead of me weren't dinking around for 4 hours pretending they're in the US Open.

...here in the States the game has evolved into a medal play, post-a-score-and-see-how-good-you-are game.

Except it is "how good you are" while getting do-overs on your bad tee shots, being "conceded" putts by people you're not in a match with and taking free drops that are generous by even PGA Tour standards. That's not "how good you are" that is "how good you imagine you are while jerking off". For four hours.

Brent,

I agree with you that many guys take bad drops, mulligans, and other liberties the rules of golf do not allow. If the group in front of me is doing that, why should I care? That's not the way I or my buddies play, but I won't get in the way of the next guy doing that. All I ask is that all players play in a reasonable amount of time.

Twice you mentioned "four hours." I may be mis-reading your context, but do you consider a four-hour round a long round? Do you think the game of golf needs fixing because the guys ahead of you are playing in four hours and they are taking mulligans and bad drops? Me personally, I find the former acceptable, and the latter I don't care about.

Respectfully,

Dave

[Brent Hutto]

Dave,

My club's course is an old-fashioned, walkable one that almost anyone can get around in three hours, twenty or thirty minutes without hurrying. When I play on Saturday mornings in a friendly match and we're one of the first couple groups out that's how long it takes as a foursome. If there's just two of us it's three hours or a bit less. Yet when I play with basically the same kind of players except we're playing for Stableford points and keeping score cards it is generally over four hours. For a threesome just under four hours. I have to conclude that the format causes the round to take at least a half-hour longer.

And I don't care at all what sort of violations of the Rules of Golf someone engages in (short of playing two balls or damaging the course somehow). I'm just saying the usual sort of people who think they're keeping score to see "how good they are" are doing no such thing. If they wanted to know how good they were they'd play actual stroke-play according to the Rules. It's illogical to write down every stroke and carefully type each score into a computer to get three decimal places of precision in a handicap that's based on five or ten strokes a round (or more) of do-overs and shortcuts.

[Rob Rigg]

Kyle,

Ballyneal is a wonderful exception to "typical" golf in the US - can you even post a score there? It has been designed as a match play course and based on the number of rounds it gets, I believe, there is very little issue with groups being held up.

David,

I was making a generalization about having "fun" golfing correlating to one's ability to enjoy a round. If you think it is fun to shoot 130 from the tips and spend 5.5 hours out there then I would imagine that falls outside the "norm" - I don't think it is a big leap to imagine that most golfers have fun when their ball remains in play, they do not have 200 to 300 yards for their second shot into every par four and they do not burn through eight sleeves of ammo a round.

Furthermore, if some guy enjoys playing the tips and shooting a million, the ten groups backed up behind him will not be enjoying themselves one bit.

Getting back to the game means getting back to playing it as the founders intended - ie) enjoying a walk through nature with your friends.

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