[Patrick_Mucci]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick, possibly there would there be CART PATHS at these clubs if your hypothetical were true. 

The recent viewing of Riviera and the upcoming tournament at Pebble has me thinking of courses that would be better without paths.

Neither Riviera nor PBGC are member owned.

As to cart paths, the four clubs I cited don't have tee to green cart paths

[jim_lewis]

I'm sure the following statement won't sit well with many of the posters on this thread, but:

I have known lots of rich people and lots of poor people. I have observed that on the AVERAGE, rich folks are smarter that poor ones.
I don't think being rich makes one smart, but being smart seems to improve one's chance of becoming rich. Furthermore, the rich folks I have known tend to have better taste and manners. Of course, I have also known many exceptions. So, I don't buy the assertion that golf clubs, courses, and the world in general would be better served if rich people would just get out of the way. In fact, if it were not for rich people, very few great golf courses would have ever been built. BTW, I am neither rich nor poor, so I claim the best attributes of both groups!

[Jeff Fortson]

I'm sure the following statement won't sit well with many of the posters on this thread, but:

I have known lots of rich people and lots of poor people. I have observed that on the AVERAGE, rich folks are smarter that poor ones.
I don't think being rich makes one smart, but being smart seems to improve one's chance of becoming rich. Furthermore, the rich folks I have known tend to have better taste and manners. Of course, I have also known many exceptions. So, I don't buy the assertion that golf clubs, courses, and the world in general would be better served if rich people would just get out of the way. In fact, if it were not for rich people, very few great golf courses would have ever been built. BTW, I am neither rich nor poor, so I claim the best attributes of both groups!

It depends on one's interpretation of "smart".  However, I tend to agree that with intelligence, in whatever capacity that intelligence comes, comes a much higher opportunity to have wealth.  I think the world is a much better place because of intelligent people, who generally happen to be wealthier.  I disagree with the taste and manners part.  If you judge taste by what brands one can afford or by knowing appropriate table manners at a ritzy dinner than I guess I agree.  With that said, I have seen people of all social-economic groups be tacky, rude or ignorant.

So, if an elite golf club (i.e. Merion, Pine Valley, etc.) generally has a more intelligent membership, solely through concluding so from their collective wealth, then they most likely stand a better chance at making more intelligent choices with their club.  I don't think this always applies, but I agree in a very general sense with the statement.


JF

[Kevin_Reilly]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick, possibly there would there be CART PATHS at these clubs if your hypothetical were true. 

The recent viewing of Riviera and the upcoming tournament at Pebble has me thinking of courses that would be better without paths.

Neither Riviera nor PBGC are member owned.

As to cart paths, the four clubs I cited don't have tee to green cart paths

Where did I say that Riviera or Pebble Beach were member owned?     Please re-read my post.  How could anyone with a pulse possibly believe that Pebble Beach was member owned?  Are you next going to tell me that Pacific Dunes and Whistling Straights are not member owned?

As for the four clubs you cited, I knew they didn't have tee to green cart paths...that is why I suggested that if the memberships of those clubs were different (see my reference to your hypothetical), one possibility would be that they could have cart paths.   

If you didn't want to discuss things at these clubs that could differ from the status quo given your hypothetical about the membership, then what's the point of this thread?

[Anthony Butler]

I favor dictators who select and groom the next dictator.
It seems to have worked out fairly well so far

Pat:

Sounds like the future of golf in China is in excellent hands!

The management structures of Oakmont and Haiti were for many decades quite similar, yet the results less so.

Discuss...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I favor dictators who select and groom the next dictator.
It seems to have worked out fairly well so far

Pat:

Sounds like the future of golf in China is in excellent hands!

The management structures of Oakmont and Haiti were for many decades quite similar, yet the results less so.
Anthony, are you intimately familiar with the management of Oakmont for the decades you reference ?

Could you detail it for us ?

Discuss...

[Patrick_Mucci]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick, possibly there would there be CART PATHS at these clubs if your hypothetical were true. 

The recent viewing of Riviera and the upcoming tournament at Pebble has me thinking of courses that would be better without paths.

Neither Riviera nor PBGC are member owned.

As to cart paths, the four clubs I cited don't have tee to green cart paths

Where did I say that Riviera or Pebble Beach were member owned?     Please re-read my post.  How could anyone with a pulse possibly believe that Pebble Beach was member owned? 


You implied same by inserting them in comparison to the four clubs I listed in your convoluted. disjointed reply.


Are you next going to tell me that Pacific Dunes and Whistling Straights are not member owned?

I might if you were to insert them in your misguided attempt at comparison with the four clubs listed

As for the four clubs you cited, I knew they didn't have tee to green cart paths...that is why I suggested that if the memberships of those clubs were different (see my reference to your hypothetical), one possibility would be that they could have cart paths.

A good number of membership owned clubs don't have tee to green cart paths, so I don't see the relevance of your hypothetical.    

If you didn't want to discuss things at these clubs that could differ from the status quo given your hypothetical about the membership, then what's the point of this thread?

I'd suggest that you don't smoke or consume strange substances before typing.

Perhaps someone who has smoked or consumed strange substances can explain what you meant in your original reply.

I know that I had no idea as to what you were trying to say in your convoluted reply

[Kevin_Reilly]

Sorry for such a confusing post there, Patrick.  I just re-read it, and yes, it was confusing.  I clearly implied that Pebble Beach was a private club when I said:

The recent viewing of Riviera and the upcoming tournament at Pebble has me thinking of courses that would be better without paths.

I should have inserted something after the word 'courses' to emphasize that I was talking about courses and not member- owned golf clubs.   

Ah, now I remember....Pat Mucci's GCA "Kryptonite" is any and all discussions of CART PATHS.  Years ago I remember that you posted with pride a picture of Boca Rio to illustrate its tree management program, but 2/3's of the unfortunate picture was dominated by a CART PATH adjacent to a tee that could accommodate a double wide beverage cart.  You defended the cart path with so much vigor that I thought you were an executive of EZ-Go.

Happy trails, Pat.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sorry for such a confusing post there, Patrick. 

I just re-read it, and yes, it was confusing. 

I clearly implied that Pebble Beach was a private club when I said:[/color]

The recent viewing of Riviera and the upcoming tournament at Pebble has me thinking of courses that would be better without paths.

I should have inserted something after the word 'courses' to emphasize that I was talking about courses and not member- owned golf clubs.[/color]   

Ah, now I remember....Pat Mucci's GCA "Kryptonite" is any and all discussions of CART PATHS. 

Years ago I remember that you posted with pride a picture of Boca Rio to illustrate its tree management program, but 2/3's of the unfortunate picture was dominated by a CART PATH adjacent to a tee that could accommodate a double wide beverage cart. 

Kevin,

You're confused AGAIN.

First, I never posted a picture.  I'm afraid that I don't know how, otherwise I'd post zillions of them

Secondly, Boca Rio has NEVER had beverage carts.

Please, stop smoking or ingesting strange substances prior to typing on GCA.com 

Boca Rio does NOT have tee to green cart paths except on the par 3's.

You defended the cart path with so much vigor that I thought you were an executive of EZ-Go.

Not with the vigor of an E-Z Go exec, but, with the knowledge that the course is barely above sea level with a water table just below the playing surface.   Without those cart paths the course would be unplayable every time it rains, and it rains pretty often and pretty good in South Florida.  In addition, the land west of the Florida Turnpike doesn't drain that well, especially when there's a lot of Marl under the playing surfaces.

Why don't you go to Ran's review of Boca Rio and look at the pictures he posted.

Would you point out for us where the cart paths, that you claim to be so familiar with, ARE ?

I can't locate any of them, but perhaps your eye, enhanced by strange substances and/or modern chemistry, can detect these extra wide cart paths, constructed for phantom beverage carts.

Happy trails, Pat.   

You too Kevin

[TEPaul]

“Would Pine Valley, the Cypress Point Club, Seminole and NGLA…

…..have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?”



Pat:

I’m not too sure what you mean by an elitist stewardship. The four clubs you mentioned have had some very strong leaders over the years but in some ways those clubs are structured and administered in be quite different and for years.

It seems the primary thing those four have in common is for whatever reasons they have all been very high up on the list of the most respected courses and perhaps clubs in the country and world. But the way they are organized, structured and run can be and has been perhaps not as similar as one might suspect.

Do all four of them have and have always had fairly selective membership criteria and policies? Of course.

[JMEvensky]

Is it not plausible that each of these clubs evolved to this type of single-mindedness over time?

Isn't it possible that,early on,these clubs had opposing factions among the membership?

Maybe it's just that these particular clubs were taken over by the factions that were/are sensitive to this type of thing.Other clubs,also with great courses,were taken over by factions with different priorities.

Just a guess,but I wonder why new clubs starting out in the 20's would have had a much different makeup than new clubs today.They would have been pressured,at least to some extent,to increase the dues line same as today.Not every member could have had the same idea of what they wanted their new club to be.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Kevin, You're confused AGAIN.

First, I never posted a picture.  I'm afraid that I don't know how, otherwise I'd post zillions of them

Tommy posted it on your behalf...in those days he was your technological valet, as it were.   Maybe he still has the picture somewhere.

Secondly, Boca Rio has NEVER had beverage carts.

I never said they did.  But hypothetically (a word causing some struggle today), if Boca Rio had beverage carts, they would have fit comfortably on the cart path in Tommy's picture.

Boca Rio does NOT have tee to green cart paths except on the par 3's.

I never said it did.  Please re-read my post.

Why don't you go to Ran's review of Boca Rio and look at the pictures he posted.

Would you point out for us where the cart paths, that you claim to be so familiar with, ARE ?

I can't locate any of them, but perhaps your eye, enhanced by strange substances and/or modern chemistry, can detect these extra wide cart paths, constructed for phantom beverage carts.

Well, Ran's review is not a Friar's Head-style bonanza of photographs, and it's been several years since Tommy posted that picture, but if memory serves, it was a picture looking down the fairway from the 8th tee.  Now you really don't want me to post a picture of the paths in the vicinity of the 8th tee, do you?   


Hope you have a good 2010.

[David_Elvins]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick,

Cypress Point would have maintained its architectural integrity if they had let in anyone who applied for membership, NGLA would have lost some integrity and Seminole would have dramatically lost architectural itegrity with a broader, fuller membership.  Pine Valley would have actually improved its architectural integrity with a broader membership.  Thus proving that elitist stewardship has relatively little bearing on a club's ability to maintain it's architectural integrity. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it not plausible that each of these clubs evolved to this type of single-mindedness over time?

NO

Isn't it possible that,early on,these clubs had opposing factions among the membership?

NO

Maybe it's just that these particular clubs were taken over by the factions that were/are sensitive to this type of thing.Other clubs,also with great courses,were taken over by factions with different priorities.

I don't think that's what happened at the clubs mentioned.
A review of their history seems to confirm that

Just a guess,but I wonder why new clubs starting out in the 20's would have had a much different makeup than new clubs today.They would have been pressured,at least to some extent,to increase the dues line same as today.Not every member could have had the same idea of what they wanted their new club to be.

Those clubs were controlled by the founders and the members respected that arrangement
Democratic rule was NOT en vogue, as it is today

[Patrick_Mucci]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick,

Cypress Point would have maintained its architectural integrity if they had let in anyone who applied for membership,


How so ?

NGLA would have lost some integrity

How so ?

and Seminole would have dramatically lost architectural itegrity with a broader, fuller membership. 

How so ?

Pine Valley would have actually improved its architectural integrity with a broader membership. 


How so ?

Thus proving that elitist stewardship has relatively little bearing on a club's ability to maintain it's architectural integrity. 

Would you list the facts and reasoning behind your theories at each of the clubs referenced.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin, You're confused AGAIN.

First, I never posted a picture.  I'm afraid that I don't know how, otherwise I'd post zillions of them

Tommy posted it on your behalf...in those days he was your technological valet, as it were.   Maybe he still has the picture somewhere.

Secondly, Boca Rio has NEVER had beverage carts.

I never said they did.  But hypothetically (a word causing some struggle today), if Boca Rio had beverage carts, they would have fit comfortably on the cart path in Tommy's picture.

Of course you did, here's your statement.

Years ago I remember that you posted with pride a picture of Boca Rio to illustrate its tree management program, but 2/3's of the unfortunate picture was dominated by a CART PATH adjacent to a tee that could accommodate a double wide beverage cart.  

Boca Rio does NOT have tee to green cart paths except on the par 3's.

[/color]

I never said it did.  Please re-read my post.

I reread your post and you certainly implied it

You defended the cart path with so much vigor that I thought you were an executive of EZ-Go.

Why don't you go to Ran's review of Boca Rio and look at the pictures he posted.

Would you point out for us where the cart paths, that you claim to be so familiar with, ARE ?

I can't locate any of them, but perhaps your eye, enhanced by strange substances and/or modern chemistry, can detect these extra wide cart paths, constructed for phantom beverage carts. [/color]

Well, Ran's review is not a Friar's Head-style bonanza of photographs, and it's been several years since Tommy posted that picture, but if memory serves, it was a picture looking down the fairway from the 8th tee.  Now you really don't want me to post a picture of the paths in the vicinity of the 8th tee, do you?  

Yes, I would like you to post ALL of the pictures of Boca Rio that you can find.

Despite your criticism of Ran's photos, NOT a SINGLE Cart Path can be seen in ANY of HIS photos

Have you EVER seen Boca Rio in person ?

I'd like everyone to have an idea of your level of familiarity and expertise on Boca Rio and any cart paths

Hope you have a good 2010.

Ditto

[Cliff Hamm]

“Would Pine Valley, the Cypress Point Club, Seminole and NGLA…

…..have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?”




Do all four of them have and have always had fairly selective membership criteria and policies? Of course.

What exactly are the membeship criteria?  Income, family ties, connections, handicap, knowledge of golf architecture, status, etc.?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff Hamm,

Income is NOT one of the criteria for membership, why would you think it would be ?

As to family ties, derivatives usually have an advantage, as does having brothers and/or sisters and other family members who are members.

With respect to connections, of course they're important, that's what sponsors are all about.
Most clubs require prospective members to have sponsors, seconders, etc, etc..
The more sponsors, seconders and supporters the more likely one would be to gain entry.
That's just common sense, isn't it.

As to status, would being the CEO, COO or CFO of Microsoft, Boeing, CBS, NBC, ESPN or Starbucks qualify ?
Why shouldn't status be a consideration ?

[Kevin_Reilly]

Of course you did, here's your statement.

"...a CART PATH adjacent to a tee that could accommodate a double wide beverage cart." 

Highlight the word "could" and use the Google machine to find a site that will explain its usage in basic writing and conversation.   

I reread your post and you certainly implied it

Try reading and understanding my post again...pretend you're a Stanford student who's in danger of receiving a B-...the professor will give you multiple chances to improve your mark.

Yes, I would like you to post ALL of the pictures of Boca Rio that you can find.

Boca Rio looks like a wonderful course and I hope some day to visit it.  I mentioned the area around the 8th tee that was the subject of Tommy's picture.  Here is that area:

[David_Elvins]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick,

Cypress Point would have maintained its architectural integrity if they had let in anyone who applied for membership,


How so ?

NGLA would have lost some integrity

How so ?

and Seminole would have dramatically lost architectural itegrity with a broader, fuller membership.  

How so ?

Pine Valley would have actually improved its architectural integrity with a broader membership.  


How so ?

Thus proving that elitist stewardship has relatively little bearing on a club's ability to maintain it's architectural integrity.  

Would you list the facts and reasoning behind your theories at each of the clubs referenced.

Thanks

Patrick,

I plugged the four courses data in to Architeg - a computer program that determines architectural integrity (designed for buildings, adapted for golf courses).  I do not know the exact formula the program users but I believe that input includes type of committee, age of course, reputation of architect, location of course, location of membership, wealth of membership, innitial ranking and reputation of course, number of professional tournaments held, etc.  It then uses 36 bit mathematical modelling and S-curve regression analysis to project the Architectural integrity of the course within a range of significant factors.  

I was quite surprised by the results myself, but they are as follows:









It also makes some significant projections about the future of Pine Valley which I will include in another post.  

*The NGLA data is slightly limited as it does not go back further than 1912.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Elvins,

The basis for your conclusions is absurd.

That you'd present your views as fact is even more absurd.

GARBAGE IN = GARBAGE OUT

[Jud_T]

I new Pine Valley had really gone downhill.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Of course you did, here's your statement.

"...a CART PATH adjacent to a tee that could accommodate a double wide beverage cart." 

Highlight the word "could" and use the Google machine to find a site that will explain its usage in basic writing and conversation.   

Look up the word, "imply".  You implied that Boca Rio had beverage carts and now that you've been proven wrong you're tying to weasel your way out of it.   However, I am glad that you posted that picture.  Would you identify the areas you said were so wide that they could accomodate a double wide beverage cart ?   I don't see them, but then again, I'm not as familiar with those cart paths as you are.

I reread your post and you certainly implied it

Try reading and understanding my post again...pretend you're a Stanford student who's in danger of receiving a B-...the professor will give you multiple chances to improve your mark.

It doesn't matter if you're a sixth grader or Senior at Stanford, you implied that Boca Rio had beverage carts, when in fact they NEVER had beverage carts

Yes, I would like you to post ALL of the pictures of Boca Rio that you can find.

Boca Rio looks like a wonderful course and I hope some day to visit it.  I mentioned the area around the 8th tee that was the subject of Tommy's picture.  Here is that area:

Whom ever said that ignorance was bliss was as off the mark as you are.

The green to the left is the 13th green, a par 3.  You may recall that I inserted cart paths from tee to green to the next tee on every par 3.  The green on top is the 11th green.
The long vertical tee to the right is the 14th tee and the horizontal tees further right is the 8th tee complex.

What you can't see is the structure beneath the trees above the 13th green, to the left of the 11th green.
That building has two restrooms, one for men and the other for women.  In addition there's a refreshment station within that building, along with phones for emergencies.  Lastly, the building is also a lightening shelter, with protected roofs allowing carts to drive under them and park when sudden lightening storms come through.  So, quite naturally, I inserted paths leading to that building for a number of reasons.  All of which, you're unaware of.  In your case, ignorance isn't bliss, it's embarrassing

What's amazing about the cart paths is that they can't be seen by the golfer as he plays his hole.
I'm sure some idiots get their perspective on how a golf course looks and plays from 10,000 feet, but, most intelligent golfers acquire their knowledge from actually playing the golf course, not flying over it.

A great deal of attention was paid to the sightlines as they related to cart path construction
In most cases dirt was brought up ot the top of the curbing, and where there was no curbing, the ground was elevated adjacent to the cart path in order to hide it.  In addition, low profile berms and mounds were crafted to hide the cart paths from views from other angles.   But, you're understandably ignorant when it comes to these facts, basing your entire premise on an aerial photo from 10,000+ feet.

Did you notice in Ran's photos that you can't see one cart path ?

Do you think that happened by accident ?

In replying and debating with me, I'd suggest you choose a topic where you're not totally ignorant when it comes to the facts and/or the course being discussed

[Kevin_Reilly]

Look up the word, "imply".  You implied that Boca Rio had beverage carts and now that you've been proven wrong you're tying to weasel your way out of it.  

You could "imply" all day that ND will return to national prominence on the gridiron but I'd have the common sense not to "infer" from your implications that any such thing was likely or even possible.  That's the difference here...your crazed inferences about beverage carts at Boca Rio are based on absolutely nothing, but for some reason you're obsessed with them.  Mr. Mucci doth protest too much, methinks.  Was there a beverage cart scandal at the club or something?   

It doesn't matter if you're a sixth grader or Senior at Stanford, you implied that Boca Rio had beverage carts, when in fact they NEVER had beverage carts

We can agree that there is little difference between a sixth grader and a senior at Stanford, but as for beverage carts....please, relax and try to think of a nice peaceful place where those nasty beverage carts aren't creeping into every thought and impulse. 

What you can't see is the structure ......That building has two restrooms, one for men and the other for women..... a refreshment station within that building.....phones for emergencies.....the building is also a lightening shelter.....allowing carts to drive under them and park.....I inserted paths leading to that building for a number of reasons. 

Thank you, I had forgotten about the snack and restroom and cart structure.  If I recall correctly, which is a reasonable inference to make, the snack/restroom/cart structure was in the background of Tommy's picture (the foreground was dominated by a cart path).  The trees must be very tall to shield a structure like that from birds-eye view.

Did you notice in Ran's photos that you can't see one cart path ?  Do you think that happened by accident ?

Ran's review of Boca Rio was done the same year as the Friar's Head review.  The Friar's Head review contains thirty-eight (38) pictures, and the Boca Rio review contains only fourteen (14) pictures.  Why is that the case?  Did Ran's camera run out of memory for picture storage on his tour of BR?  Did his battery run out?  No, that's not likely because there are pictures of the 14th through 18th holes, so unless  Ran started on the tenth he had plenty of storage space and battery power, if not photographic opportunities, on the front side.  Sometimes an error of omission is better than an error of commission, at least from a photography aspect.

In replying and debating with me, I'd suggest you choose a topic where you're not totally ignorant when it comes to the facts and/or the course being discussed

I agree, and as such I will not debate NGLA or the terrain at Seminole with you. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Look up the word, "imply".  You implied that Boca Rio had beverage carts and now that you've been proven wrong you're tying to weasel your way out of it.  

You could "imply" all day that ND will return to national prominence on the gridiron but I'd have the common sense not to "infer" from your implications that any such thing was likely or even possible.  That's the difference here...your crazed inferences about beverage carts at Boca Rio are based on absolutely nothing, but for some reason you're obsessed with them.  Mr. Mucci doth protest too much, methinks.  Was there a beverage cart scandal at the club or something?   

None to date, but, a few members did fall victim to Bernie Madoff.
You brought up beverage carts, not me.

It doesn't matter if you're a sixth grader or Senior at Stanford, you implied that Boca Rio had beverage carts, when in fact they NEVER had beverage carts

We can agree that there is little difference between a sixth grader and a senior at Stanford, but as for beverage carts....please, relax and try to think of a nice peaceful place where those nasty beverage carts aren't creeping into every thought and impulse. 

I don't know why you brought them up, especially with such narrow cart paths at Boca Rio

What you can't see is the structure ......That building has two restrooms, one for men and the other for women..... a refreshment station within that building.....phones for emergencies.....the building is also a lightening shelter.....allowing carts to drive under them and park.....I inserted paths leading to that building for a number of reasons. 

Thank you, I had forgotten about the snack and restroom and cart structure.  If I recall correctly, which is a reasonable inference to make, the snack/restroom/cart structure was in the background of Tommy's picture (the foreground was dominated by a cart path).  The trees must be very tall to shield a structure like that from birds-eye view.

The trees are tall.
And, there are two such structures on the golf course.
Florida leads the nation in lightening deaths.  The storms come up quickly and travel fast, usually west to east, thus, there's a heightened sense of safety when it comes to lightening on a golf course in Florida.

Did you notice in Ran's photos that you can't see one cart path ?  Do you think that happened by accident ?

Ran's review of Boca Rio was done the same year as the Friar's Head review.  The Friar's Head review contains thirty-eight (38) pictures, and the Boca Rio review contains only fourteen (14) pictures.  Why is that the case?  You'll have to ask Ran.

Did Ran's camera run out of memory for picture storage on his tour of BR?  Did his battery run out?  No, that's not likely because there are pictures of the 14th through 18th holes, so unless  Ran started on the tenth he had plenty of storage space and battery power, if not photographic opportunities, on the front side.  Sometimes an error of omission is better than an error of commission, at least from a photography aspect.

Just when you were climbing out of the fog of your own ignorance on this topic, you plunge back into it.
Perhaps "dive" head first would be a more appropriate description.
Are we to assume that just because you haven't posted pictures of your girlfriend/s, wife and relatives that they're all ugly to the bone.
Based on your theory of omission, and your logic, that seems like a reasonable conclusion, doesn't it

Stick to a subject you know something about.
Boca Rio clearly isn't one of them.

In replying and debating with me, I'd suggest you choose a topic where you're not totally ignorant when it comes to the facts and/or the course being discussed

I agree, and as such I will not debate NGLA or the terrain at Seminole with you. 

A wise or prudent person would add Boca Rio, but, we've established that you don't fit those categories

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()