Would Pine Valley, Cypress Point Club, Seminole and NGLA

[TEPaul]

"Clifford Roberts was probably the most elitist man in golf history in the United States."


Mike Cirba:

He may've been but on that note he definitely had some serious competition-----very serious competition!

I just love the story of Clifford Roberts coming to Pine Valley and going out and speaking to the superintendent after which word came down on high from John Arthur Brown via his enforcer "Big Ed" Bryant that JAB would appreciate it if Clifford Roberts would theretofore ask his permission to come to Pine Valley BEFORE even thinking about entering the property.

On the other hand, Seminole had one of the nicest and kindest men I've ever known as its dictator for a time----one Alan Ryan who in a real way had something of a husband and wife dictatorship going with his truly wonderful wife, Gracie. He was followed by another wonderful dictator in George Coleman.

[Philippe Binette]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

[BCrosby]

"Would we actually be farther ahead in the technology debate, if the Masters Committee had done nothing to ANGC, and if a few odd 59's had been scored by guys who hit 9 iron into 15 for eagle, and who never had to hit more than a 7-iron into any green?"

Good point, Chuck. The meliorists at ANGC and other great venues have dulled the real impact of the new technologies, with the effect that they have made it harder for those who want to do something about it.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Philippe:

My experience with some of the most signficant American courses is even if there is a tremendous amount of money around it or potentially so, the idea was to dedicatedly try not to spend it or not much of it. There was even a fairly common term for that kind of thing and that kind of ethos for those kinds of people in not just their clubs and courses but sometimes their homes, their automobilies and their dress too. It was known as "shabby chiche."

Unfortunately, it sometimes got so excessive at a few courses that they actually suffered from it over time, particularly nutritionally and maintenance-wise.

[Tom_Doak]

On the other hand, Seminole had one of the nicest and kindest men I've ever known as its dictator for a time----one Alan Ryan who in a real way had something of a husband and wife dictatorship going with his truly wonderful wife, Gracie. He was followed by another wonderful dictator in George Coleman.

Tom P:

Thank you for mentioning Allan Ryan.

When I was a sophomore in college, I wrote to Seminole to ask if I could come see the course, and got a letter back from Mr. Ryan that said to call him when I got to Florida.  I called, and he said come over to the club tomorrow morning for breakfast, and tell me what you're doing.

So we had breakfast, and when we were finished, he introduced me to the professional and the superintendent, and told them I was welcome around there.

Sadly, I think there were some at Seminole who thought Mr. Ryan was TOO nice of a guy, and after he passed away, they decided the club needed to get a bit tougher to visit in order to preserve its status.  They got the two definitions of "class" confused.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

Philippe,

If you've been to Seminole, NGLA, Pine Valley or CPC, you'll notice that the clubhouses/pro shops/facilities are tastefully appointed.

Of the members I've met at these clubs, I can't recall meeting any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.
Although I'm sure that every club probably has a few members lacking in good taste and/or good manners.

Having money DOESN'T get you in to the Seminole's, NGLA's, Pine Valley's and CPC's of the world.

You implied that members of those clubs don't have taste, and I'd have to vehemently disagree with you on that point

I'd have to say that having money is more likely to get you in to clubs that have been formed in more recent times.
Trump courses might be an example of where cash is king, but, in this economy, many other clubs are adopting that modus operandi just to survive

[Cliff Hamm]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

 
Of the members I've met at these clubs, I can't recall meeting any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Having money DOESN'T get you in to the Seminole's, NGLA's, Pine Valley's and CPC's of the world.

You implied that members of those clubs don't have taste, and I'd have to vehemently disagree with you on that point

Rush Limbaugh is a member of Seminole.

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Mike Hendren]

Elite stewardship?  No.  No greater juxtaposition can be found than in Nashville's Belle Meade CC and Knoxville's Holston Hills - both original Ross designs.  As a private club, Holston languished for years on a side of town that was all but forgotten.  Memberships were available for a grand or two twenty years ago and the club struggled economically, fortunately resulting in virtually no change to Ross' original design.  By comparison, Belle Meade is as elite as they come and has done significant work on their golf course over the years, first with RTJ, then Gary Roger Baird and recently a complete Rees Jones redo.   From an architectural perspective, Holston makes a lot of lists while Belle Meade doesn't and won't. 

Mike

[David_Tepper]

Wouldn't it be nice to know that the "elite stewardship" of these clubs, these men of "good taste," did not engage in bigotry, prejudice and racism while maintaining the architectural greatness of their golf courses?

[JSlonis]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

 
Of the members I've met at these clubs, I can't recall meeting any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Having money DOESN'T get you in to the Seminole's, NGLA's, Pine Valley's and CPC's of the world.

You implied that members of those clubs don't have taste, and I'd have to vehemently disagree with you on that point

Rush Limbaugh is a member of Seminole.

And the point is...?

Have you ever met him?

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

Of the four courses you mentioned, I think only one had a member who was a convicted felon and was never rusticated.

Bob

[Jeff Fortson]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

 
Of the members I've met at these clubs, I can't recall meeting any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Having money DOESN'T get you in to the Seminole's, NGLA's, Pine Valley's and CPC's of the world.

You implied that members of those clubs don't have taste, and I'd have to vehemently disagree with you on that point

Rush Limbaugh is a member of Seminole.

And the point is...?

Have you ever met him?

I think he has made himself more than visible to come up with an opinion of what kind of man he is.....

A delusional, self-righteous, bigoted, drug addict.


JF

[Phil_the_Author]

Elite stewardship has nothing to do with it, it all boils down to whether the decisions made are the correct ones. An example, Pinehurst #2.

By all accounts, nothing was done to the course through 40+ years unless Donald Ross himself suggested and/or approved it. Yet todays primary feature that gives the course its greatness, the upside-down saucer shaping of the greens, is a result of the ACCIDENTAL over-application of top-dressing through the years. The greens are nothing like what Ross had designed or intended, yet they are considered among the greatest set of putting challenges in the world... all through an ongoing accident!

Golf courses can only maintain their greatness when those in charge listen to those who can advise and then make the RIGHT decisions...

[Cliff Hamm]

Politics aside, Mr. Limbaugh's mocking of Micheal J. Fox  (who has Parkinson's disesae) by mimicking his shaking and claiming that Fox was 'faking it' was one of the most tasteless acts in my memory.  Shameless.  So no I have not met Mr. Limbaugh.  He may be polite, have tremendous social skills, etc., but this action speaks for itself.

[TEPaul]

"Rush Limbaugh is a member of Seminole."

Cliff:

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Did you happen to see that story on here of that day the czar at the time found out Donald Trump was out there playing Seminole?

[Cliff Hamm]

I read that in the current issue of Golf Digest.  They have a feature of famous folks who have played golf.  Limbaugh is listed and it states "...is a 15 handicap at the Everglades Club near his home in Palm Beach, and at Seminole, Pine Tree, The Floridian, and the Dye Preserve".  Consider the source.

[TEPaul]

"Consider the source."


Thank you Cliff and duly noted. I remember the time in Golf Digest that they reported that captain Ray Floyd of the US Ryder Cup team told his players to putt out in all cases and put pressure on the opponents. So I called Golf Digest and told them that was basically a no-can-do in the Ryder Cup. They told me of course it was doable and they reminded me that we see it every week on the Tour. So, I told them to just go get a Rules book and read the Rule on playing out of turn in match play. The guy put the phone down, read the Rule and picked up the phone again and just said; "Whoops."   

And if that wasn't bad enough they probably had to get in touch with Ray and inform him that was sort of a no-can-do in the Ryder Cup.

I mean, honestly, some of these touring pros are just so out-to-lunch on some technicalities of the Rules of Golf they actually started putting a line on their golf balls so they could line the danged things up to putt 'em where they wanted to putt 'em.   

[JSlonis]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

 
Of the members I've met at these clubs, I can't recall meeting any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Having money DOESN'T get you in to the Seminole's, NGLA's, Pine Valley's and CPC's of the world.

You implied that members of those clubs don't have taste, and I'd have to vehemently disagree with you on that point

Rush Limbaugh is a member of Seminole.

And the point is...?

Have you ever met him?

I think he has made himself more than visible to come up with an opinion of what kind of man he is.....

A delusional, self-righteous, bigoted, drug addict.


JF

Hmmm, guess you like doglegs to the "left".

[Jason Connor]

Given that Augusta didn't make your list, perhaps membership is less important than NOT hosting a professional tournament.

[Jeff Fortson]

It's not because you have money that you have taste

 
Of the members I've met at these clubs, I can't recall meeting any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Having money DOESN'T get you in to the Seminole's, NGLA's, Pine Valley's and CPC's of the world.

You implied that members of those clubs don't have taste, and I'd have to vehemently disagree with you on that point

Rush Limbaugh is a member of Seminole.

And the point is...?

Have you ever met him?

I think he has made himself more than visible to come up with an opinion of what kind of man he is.....

A delusional, self-righteous, bigoted, drug addict.


JF

Hmmm, guess you like doglegs to the "left".

Nah...  not me.  I like to fade it in golf. 


JF

[Patrick_Mucci]

Elite stewardship has nothing to do with it, it all boils down to whether the decisions made are the correct ones. An example, Pinehurst #2.

Philip, I'm afraid you picked a great example, but, for the wrong reasons.
The TUFTS family controlled Pinehurst, including # 2.
It was THEIR stewardship and their stewardship alone that preserved the course for decade after decade.

By all accounts, nothing was done to the course through 40+ years unless Donald Ross himself suggested and/or approved it.

Not true.
It was the TUFTS family, a family steeped in golf and the traditions of the game, that controlled the courses, not Donald Ross.

Yet todays primary feature that gives the course its greatness, the upside-down saucer shaping of the greens, is a result of the ACCIDENTAL over-application of top-dressing through the years.

I believe that explanation is a myth.
One only has to look at the elevated nature of most of the greens to understand their umbrella like structure.
And, if top dressing was applied, why wouldn't it be applied in a universally equal method ?

The greens are nothing like what Ross had designed or intended, yet they are considered among the greatest set of putting challenges in the world... all through an ongoing accident!

I don't believe that's true.
I understand, from a reliable source, who was friendly with the Tufts family,  who began playing Pinehurst in the late 20's, early 30's, in the North South Open and the North- South Amateur that Pinehurst's greens were originally sand greens, converted to grass subsequently, and that as grass greens they always had that crowned feature, with the umbrella like falloffs.

Golf courses can only maintain their greatness when those in charge listen to those who can advise and then make the RIGHT decisions...

I believe the record shows that the Tufts family made the right decisions while they owned Pinehurst

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff & Jeff,

I can only speak to those members I've met and spent some time with, I can't speak to those members that I haven't met.

To repeat myself, of the members I've met and spent some time with I can't recall any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Are you fellows friendly with Jeremiah Wright ?

[Jeff Fortson]

Cliff & Jeff,

I can only speak to those members I've met and spent some time with, I can't speak to those members that I haven't met.

To repeat myself, of the members I've met and spent some time with I can't recall any who weren't gentlemen with good taste.

Are you fellows friendly with Jeremiah Wright ?

I'm sure there are many fine gentlemen at the clubs mentioned. I'm sure a vast majority of them are.  Wealth has nothing to do with class.  Rush Limbaugh is who I was referring to.  I think he is classless regardless of his political leanings.  There are plenty of people on the left that I agree with politically that I think are grade-A pricks. 


JF

[Kevin_Reilly]

have maintained their greatness over the years, and preserved their architectural integrity, if anyone and everyone who applied for membership was admitted, or, is there something to be said for elitist stewardship ?

Patrick, possibly there would there be CART PATHS at these clubs if your hypothetical were true.  The recent viewing of Riviera and the upcoming tournament at Pebble has me thinking of courses that would be better without paths.