[Sean Leary]

Ryan,

How did you put the turbocharger on your cart? Mine had a governor that kept me at an old man's pace.

Bob,

It was wonderful. Bob kept saying how it was so much better than Desert Canyon today.

Garland,

Have you been to Desert Canyon? Its amazing to see how similar the surroundings look. Kind of eerie, actually...

[Ryan Admussen]

Ryan,

How did you put the turbocharger on your cart? Mine had a governor that kept me at an old man's pace.

Bob,

It was wonderful. Bob kept saying how it was so much better than Desert Canyon today.

Garland,

The turbo button was right next to the button for the horn and headlights

[John Mayhugh]

I had a great time at Sagebrush earlier this week, even though Monday was the day that they got the equivalent of their annual rainfall.  Many thanks to Bob for organizing the event and Dick Zokol and Terry Donald for supporting it.

No point in me posting photos as Matt's tour is very comprehensive.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0/

My thoughts:
Overall course assessment - outstanding.  If located in the US, it should make the Golfweek top 20 modern.   Excellent routing with plenty of variety used in the severe terrain.  The toughest transitions beg for a cart, but I would like to give walking a try.  No intentional focus on eye candy, with the right number/purpose of bunkers.

Greens - better than outstanding.  They were as true as any that I've putted on in the past couple of years and the contours are wonderful.  In just two days of play, I noticed several spots where the change in hole location really impacted the way I should play the hole - especially with wind factored in.

Strategy - loads of options with no clear choice.  Plenty of temptation to take risks, with some bad results when you don't pull it off. A great example is on the short first hole.  It's a short yardage par 5 (448 from the blues) that goes steeply uphill.  The strongest impulse is to get close to the green with the second shot so you can get up and down for birdie.  But with a front hole location, you're more likely to make bogey (or worse) than birdie from 40 yards. 

Experience.  Look at Matt's pictures.  The scale is bigger and considerably more awesome in person.  Not sure when I'll be back out there, but I hope it is soon.

[Richard Choi]

Has anyone played Black Mesa and Sagebrush? I would like to know how they compare...

[Sean Leary]

I had a great time at Sagebrush earlier this week, even though Monday was the day that they got the equivalent of their annual rainfall.  Many thanks to Bob for organizing the event and Dick Zokol and Terry Donald for supporting it.

No point in me posting photos as Matt's tour is very comprehensive.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0/

My thoughts:
Overall course assessment - outstanding.  If located in the US, it should make the Golfweek top 20 modern.   Excellent routing with plenty of variety used in the severe terrain.  The toughest transitions beg for a cart, but I would like to give walking a try.  No intentional focus on eye candy, with the right number/purpose of bunkers.

Greens - better than outstanding.  They were as true as any that I've putted on in the past couple of years and the contours are wonderful.  In just two days of play, I noticed several spots where the change in hole location really impacted the way I should play the hole - especially with wind factored in.

Strategy - loads of options with no clear choice.  Plenty of temptation to take risks, with some bad results when you don't pull it off. A great example is on the short first hole.  It's a short yardage par 5 (448 from the blues) that goes steeply uphill.  The strongest impulse is to get close to the green with the second shot so you can get up and down for birdie.  But with a front hole location, you're more likely to make bogey (or worse) than birdie from 40 yards. 

Experience.  Look at Matt's pictures.  The scale is bigger and considerably more awesome in person.  Not sure when I'll be back out there, but I hope it is soon.

John,

Did you feel this way about the course the first time you played it, or did it grow on you?

I liked it a lot more after playing it a few times than after the first play. It really grew on me....

[Garland Bayley]

Has anyone played Black Mesa and Sagebrush? I would like to know how they compare...

Sagebrush is way better.
Sagebrush has the width that you dream you would have at Black Mesa.
Sagebrush has the green complexes that you dream you would have at Black Mesa.

[Will MacEwen]

I had a great time at Sagebrush earlier this week, even though Monday was the day that they got the equivalent of their annual rainfall.  Many thanks to Bob for organizing the event and Dick Zokol and Terry Donald for supporting it.

No point in me posting photos as Matt's tour is very comprehensive.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0/

My thoughts:
Overall course assessment - outstanding.  If located in the US, it should make the Golfweek top 20 modern.   Excellent routing with plenty of variety used in the severe terrain.  The toughest transitions beg for a cart, but I would like to give walking a try.  No intentional focus on eye candy, with the right number/purpose of bunkers.

Greens - better than outstanding.  They were as true as any that I've putted on in the past couple of years and the contours are wonderful.  In just two days of play, I noticed several spots where the change in hole location really impacted the way I should play the hole - especially with wind factored in.

Strategy - loads of options with no clear choice.  Plenty of temptation to take risks, with some bad results when you don't pull it off. A great example is on the short first hole.  It's a short yardage par 5 (448 from the blues) that goes steeply uphill.  The strongest impulse is to get close to the green with the second shot so you can get up and down for birdie.  But with a front hole location, you're more likely to make bogey (or worse) than birdie from 40 yards. 

Experience.  Look at Matt's pictures.  The scale is bigger and considerably more awesome in person.  Not sure when I'll be back out there, but I hope it is soon.

Nice to get your well-travelled perspective John.  I hold the course in similar regard, but can only really compare it to Bandon and Chambers on the modern public side.

I was 40 yards out on the first hole, and hit about three spinny pitches that I thought were perfect, and the came back to my feet each time.  (This dovetails with the question of what is a matchplay course - the answer being a course where I take 10 on the first). I would play it differently again. although there would always be the temptation to get home in two.

The greens were awfully true last year, really something for a new course.  I think it helps make the size and contours more manageable, knowing good putts will be rewarded.

Glad to hear you were duly impressed.

[John Mayhugh]

Did you feel this way about the course the first time you played it, or did it grow on you?

I liked it a lot more after playing it a few times than after the first play. It really grew on me....

It takes more than one play to fully appreciate, and I liked the course better and better each trip around.  I got to play in windy and calm conditions with different hole locations and tried different tees on some holes.  Even got to see in the rain, though I wasn't wanting that!

[John Mayhugh]

Nice to get your well-travelled perspective John.  I hold the course in similar regard, but can only really compare it to Bandon and Chambers on the modern public side.

I was 40 yards out on the first hole, and hit about three spinny pitches that I thought were perfect, and the came back to my feet each time.  (This dovetails with the question of what is a matchplay course - the answer being a course where I take 10 on the first). I would play it differently again. although there would always be the temptation to get home in two.

If Sagebrush was part of the Bandon resort and people told me it was their favorite of the course, I wouldn't think they were crazy.  Of the Bandon courses, I would rather play Old Macdonald than Sagebrush, but like Sagebrush just as much as any of the others.  And definitely prefer it to Chambers.

I can tell you that playing that 40 yard shot on the ground isn't a good choice either!

[Richard Choi]

And definitely prefer it to Chambers.

Blasphemy!!!

Oh well, you also preferred Bandon over Pacific, so I guess I could live with that...

[Dan Herrmann]

Damn - I really wish I could've gone to this one.  I love BC, and have always wanted to get out to that part of the province.    Glad you had a great time!

[Richard Choi]

Garland & Pete, how would you compare Sagebrush to Wine Valley? They have very similar feel (though WV is much bigger in scale) and same sort of greens (almost identical, if you ask me).

What say you?

[Pete_Pittock]

Edge to Sagebrush.

    As much as I like the nuanced greens at Wine Valley, the greens at Sagebrush are superb. Pending more thought, the 9th at Sagebrush might be one of the top 3 I have played. Hazards come into play more at Sagebrush, that mean better placement, was I hitting it worse or the slopes provide more predicatability?  More thought on shots required at Sagebrush. I found out the hard way that using the contours from the wrong place spell trouble. Excepting the greens, right now Wine Valley has a slight edge on conditioning, but it is a year older. Ball sits up the same.
   I know I'll get up to Wine Valley as it is only 3+ hrs one-way. Sagebrush is 425 miles, 9 hours uphill after you abandon Hope in the rear view mirror, but I want to get back, often.

Jed Peters,
   They both (Sagebrush and Clear Creek Tahoe) have yurts, are the same driving distance and have the same season. Enjoyment level for MY game gives my vote to Sagebrush.

[Garland Bayley]

When considering just the playing field:

Edge to Sagebrush, probably by more than Pete gives the edge. Wine Valley could not resist the temptation to put in those unneeded ponds!

The greens at Sagebrush win big too.

Wine Valley plays wider, so that is a plus.

I'm a fan of the bunkering at Wine Valley, but Sagebrush is a stand out in that area too.

When considering the traditions of the game:

Wine Valley is a nice walk. At my age and condition, I wouldn't even consider it at Sagebrush. More power to Mayhugh if he thinks he can do it, but it is not for me.

But, once again you must consider that Wine Valley has those unneeded ponds.

Eventually, Wine Valley is slated to have a much more significant housing component.

[Pete_Pittock]

Garland,
Views (37 lots) will be better at Sagebrush. As much as walking is vaunted, cart ball means 36-54 holes if you're not a slow driver .
I probably "like" Wine Valley in the ammunition category. It is a one ball course. Call me reload.

[John Mayhugh]

Wine Valley is a nice walk. At my age and condition, I wouldn't even consider it at Sagebrush. More power to Mayhugh if he thinks he can do it, but it is not for me.

Next time we'll try walking.  I'll even carry your clubs up the two tough hikes from green to tee (assuming I can hitch a ride on the back of a cart).


Choi,
Do you think Chambers is better?

[Richard Choi]

John, I believe Chambers plays wider, has better angles to play and greens are more interesting. Not to mention it is much inducive to bump & roll play. With the bent grass greens, Sagebrush has much more difference in speed between the green and the fairway which make B&R more difficult.

I think there are a lot more strategy in play at Chambers.

[Tim Bert]

When considering just the playing field:

At my age and condition, I wouldn't even consider it at Sagebrush.

Whoooaaaaa!!!!  This place must be like climbing Mount Everest if the guy that staunchly defends Chambers Bay as extremely walkable won't even think about it here...   

[Rob Rigg]

John, I believe Chambers plays wider, has better angles to play and greens are more interesting. Not to mention it is much inducive to bump & roll play. With the bent grass greens, Sagebrush has much more difference in speed between the green and the fairway which make B&R more difficult.

I think there are a lot more strategy in play at Chambers.

Really? Intriguing. From the photos Sagebrush looks more compelling to the eye than CB (which is certainly a solid track).

Was Sagebrush playing slower because of all the rain? It looked super B&R friendly from previous snaps.

There is another great course out there that has bent greens but it plays PLENTY firm and fast. And CB will probably go to some sort of blended bent after the AM because the greens have had so much trouble.

Rich - CB does present pretty straightforward up and downs on many holes because of the side and back boards - Does SB do the same thing?

[Ted Harris]

I echo John's comments about the greens being outstanding

Thanks to Bob for organizing this outing (my first GCA event) and for ensuring that at least a few of the participants were stylishly attired for dinner !!!!

[Matt Bosela]

I won't comment on comparisons between CB and SB, since I haven't played Chambers yet.

However, I can tell you that Mr. Choi is off his rocker if he thinks that Sagebrush isn't a ground game course - the fairways at SB stimp around 6 I believe and despite the difference in speed between fairways and greens, which stimp around 10.5 to 11, you can roll the ball in from up to 150 yards on some holes if you hit the proper slopes.

[Richard Choi]

Tim, I think I can certainly walk Sagebrush, but not sure I would enjoy it as there would be a lot of climbing and walking back to the tees.

Rob, Sagebrush plays pretty firm and fast, the only problem is there is probably at least 4 or 5 feet difference in stimp between the fairway and the green (greens were playing fast while I was there and they were just sanded). While I would not think twice about pulling out my putter from 50 yards out at Chambers or Bandon, I don't think that would be my first choice on most of the greensites at Sagebrush.  There are some sideboards at Sagebrush, but they do not necessarily release the ball back and your ball can be stuck up there.

I also thought greens did not have a lot of internal contours. I think the 9th green is all-world, but it is pretty unique on the course. If you gave me another 4 or 5 greens (or more!) like that on the course, I would have loved it. (but, then again, I may be in the minority as I absolutely love Ballyneal and Old Mac greens)

Also, with the angles of the fairways it is very easy to run out of fairways or what you thought was a pretty good drive often end up in the sagebrush. Which is all fine and dandy except that I think I only found may be 10% to 20% of my balls in the desert. I can usually do better than 50% at Ballyneal and certainly more than that at Bandon and Chambers, and I think that makes the course a bit too penal.

But it is a fabulous course (I mean we are talking about all top 100 courses here) and I would not hesitate recommending it to anyone.

[Garland Bayley]

When considering just the playing field:

At my age and condition, I wouldn't even consider it at Sagebrush.

Whoooaaaaa!!!!  This place must be like climbing Mount Everest if the guy that staunchly defends Chambers Bay as extremely walkable won't even think about it here...   

All they need to do is provide a method of transport green to tee, and I would walk and carry at Sagebrush. They also need to cut a walking path from 10 tee to 10 green so you don't have to do the detour.

[Garland Bayley]

John, I believe Chambers plays wider, has better angles to play and greens are more interesting. Not to mention it is much inducive to bump & roll play. With the bent grass greens, Sagebrush has much more difference in speed between the green and the fairway which make B&R more difficult.

I think there are a lot more strategy in play at Chambers.

I agree with Richard.
The width is particularly important to someone of my abilities.

[Garland Bayley]

I echo John's comments about the greens being outstanding

Thanks to Bob for organizing this outing (my first GCA event) and for ensuring that at least a few of the participants were stylishly attired for dinner !!!!

I resemble that remark.

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