[Dan Herrmann]

Jeff,
How does a non-equity, for-profit club fit in?   I'll hazard a guess that we'll see more non-equity in the next 20 years.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, does the 400 member limit relate to whether you are a public accommodation, and so subject to all of those laws? 


Yes

AS far as I know, it has nothing to do with tax.

Correct

ON tee times, we have a big club, with pretty heavy play, and there is always a contingent wanting to go to tee times.  Most of that push is for member play, not guest play.  Our members who bring a lot of guests do NOT want to have to rush to the tee in the middle of lunch if someone is late.  Much easier to just spend a few more minutes on the range or putting.  We also saw a shift last year in the timing of guest play.  In prior years, only 20% of our guest play was on weekends -- if it was equally distributed, you would expect to see 32 percent on weekends.  Last year, weekend guest play went to 30%, a huge increase, which led to some significant crowding at times that used to be empty. Interesting.

Jeff, at some clubs I'm familiar with, Thursdays seem to be the best day of the week to have guests, as the club is fairly underutilized on that day

[Mike Hendren]

Why is a great membership important - so people can sit around and talk about how great it is to be great?

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

A great membership is important to me because it usually indicates that the club is in harmony with the game of golf and the culture of those who love that game.

A great membership loves the game, and the course they play it on as members.

Is there something wrong with that ?

[Mike Hendren]

Mike Hendren,
A great membership loves the game, and the course they play it on as members.

"Great" is an over-used, subjective adjective.  It self-serves every member to believe their membership is great.  Logic:  1) Our membership is great.  2) I am a member.  3)  Therefore, I am great.

I do like your definition.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael,
A great tautology if I've ever seen one

[Bruce Katona]

Adrian & Archie may support this "Rule of Thumb" on tee times for 18 hole facilities (Northern Cimate - Snow bird clubs have a different matrix):
1. If you have less than 200-225 members you do not need tee times and can easily accomodate whoever drives up and wants to play.  The members will love the place but you may not be making any money (if you are high end private you don't care as they send you the assessment @ years end).
2. At 250-275 members you may need tee times on Saturday & Sunday AM.  The members may moan a bit about "the good old days when I had the "place to myself).  You'll be breaking even or gereating a small annual profit.
3. 300-325 members requires a tee sheet for all times and threir will be membership complains about "crowding and slow play".  Your profit margins here should be the best
4. Above 350 members  you are maxed out and and risk losing members as they preceive the club as too crowded, not what we joined for, etc.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian & Archie may support this "Rule of Thumb" on tee times for 18 hole facilities (Northern Cimate - Snow bird clubs have a different matrix):
1. If you have less than 200-225 members you do not need tee times and can easily accomodate whoever drives up and wants to play.  The members will love the place but you may not be making any money (if you are high end private you don't care as they send you the assessment @ years end).
2. At 250-275 members you may need tee times on Saturday & Sunday AM.  The members may moan a bit about "the good old days when I had the "place to myself).  You'll be breaking even or gereating a small annual profit.
3. 300-325 members requires a tee sheet for all times and threir will be membership complains about "crowding and slow play".  Your profit margins here should be the best
4. Above 350 members  you are maxed out and and risk losing members as they preceive the club as too crowded, not what we joined for, etc.

Those numbers make sense. At one course I am involved with, with about 900 members, its hard to get the right tee time sometimes on a weekend but in the week its quiet. One thing that I have noticed from another thread is that US members perhaps play more than a UK member at their home course. Our average member played 19 times per year, the highest was 108 times. Over 100 did not play one round. A lot of you GCA ers were getting up around 100 rounds per year.

[Jason Topp]

Even though I play at a private club, I return to my former public course a lot and its "Mens Club" has one of the best atmospheres I have experienced. (Women are welcome as well).

The course has three nines and the regulars all play in the first two hour block, meaning that before and after the round there is a huge group of guys that see each other every weekend.  While warming up I can depend on being insulted about being a country club snob and have every aspect of my appearance scrutinized.

They have a cheap happy hour so that nearly everyone stops and has a beer afterwards.

There are a lot of good players that are also terrific social people that happily play with and engage with us of lesser skill.  Nearly everyone else competes with passion and simply loves to play the game.

They hold a large number of competitions - one every Wednesday evening and "major" events on weekends at least once per month.

$2 nassaus are the standard game and are competed for fiercely.

People play by the rules.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jason that sounds like another tick for the.. great clubs dont have to be great courses.... The FUN word seems to be there aswell.

[Tommy Williamsen]

One of my clubs has 250 individual members.  When the course first opened a prospective member had a one on one meeting with the then owner.  He wanted players who loved the game and "played well with other children."  We all knew that there was a provision in the by-laws that demanded a certain kind of behavior.  One member turned out to be a real stinker. He berated the staff and threw clubs on the golf course.  The owner, politely returned his initiation fee, refunded all the dues that he had payed and asked him to leave.  I was uncomfortable with the "elitist process, but the membership is just terrific. We have a group of guys (only about five women members) who really get along and welcome new members cordially.   

[Eric Smith]

Jason Topp makes a nice point re: really good public examples as well.

I cannot answer Bart's question without sharing my belief that if I were the man behind the vision, the development and the funding of my dream club or course, it would seem (to me) virtually impossible to attain a sustainable membership who would/could carry the vision forward and keep the club or course on the path in which I have envisioned.  But that's just me.  Dreaming perfection is easy... Let me amend this thought...it would seem to me that after completing such an arduous task, eg getting the golf course in the ground, that this whole new campaign would probably just almost suck the life out of me.    

In the end, I cannot envision not running into problems that I do not have answers for, whether it be as benign as personality conflicts or at the extreme end, evil intentions of others that could creep into the picture and attempt to thwart the mission.  Even in Benevolent Dictator mode, membership issues could possibly turn what started as an idealic dream into a real life, not-so-much-fun-anymore-pain-in-the-ass.
 
That is why I have reconciled with the idea of a public golf course suiting my dreams best.  But thank God for variety!  Though I've never met them or been out there, I admire the O'Neal brothers in Holyoke, Colorado as they appear to have the entire package, both on their end as the visionaries and developers and on the membership end, with a collection of like minded individuals who have come together to form a special golf club.

[Sean Leary]

My local club was built with the idea and the vision of what Jeff Fortson mentioned in his ideal club. I read his "ideal" and checked off each one of the first 12 or 13 on his list. It worked in 1999 when it was built but does not today. It cost too much too build, course is too hard for weaker players, and the equity structure didn't provide any money for the coffers. We are now trying to find a way to fix the problems but it isn't easy.

[D_Malley]

re: guest fees

If your club charges say $100 for guest fees, you could give each member a booklet of 12 coupons which they could use to bring guests for $40.  They may use them to bring friends or neighbors, and then if they are playing business golf they would pay the $150, where they could expense it.

This is the system that Merion used when i worked there, not sure if they still do it.

[mike_beene]

We can't pick wives and business partners half the time. How do we know what members to admit?

[Adrian_Stiff]

We can't pick wives and business partners half the time. How do we know what members to admit?

Mike - I think your spot on. Admit or not Admit, you might have to make 1000 correct calls, somewhere in there is charming individual that sounded great on the application form and even passed his interview!

[Roger Wolfe]

In addition, it's not unusual for charities to auction off several foursomes for play at a golf course.  In that case, there's NO accountability.  And, like it or not, many guests don't take care of the golf course.  Is it any different from people who rent a car from Avis or Hertz ?  Do they treat that car like their own ?  Experience in this area is a great teacher.

A little OT... but we give out a LOT of charity guest certificates.  They are good for three weekday guest fees
and a member cart fee.  They are restricted to Tuesday - Thursday.  They can only be used when accompanied
by a member.

We get a lot of goodwill and it protects the course...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Roger,

Some clubs are moving away from the unaccompanied foursome to the requirement that a member be part of the foursome.
Usually the member donating the package is a supporter of the charity.

Yet, many charity auctions are for unaccompanied foursomes and a number of high profile clubs have ceased allowing this because of problems they encountered

[Roger Wolfe]

Roger,

Some clubs are moving away from the unaccompanied foursome to the requirement that a member be part of the foursome.
Usually the member donating the package is a supporter of the charity.

Yet, many charity auctions are for unaccompanied foursomes and a number of high profile clubs have ceased allowing this because of problems they encountered

My favorite is when a long term charity complains that we used to give unaccompanied foursomes.  I always counter with, "How about two accompanied threesomes?"  That usually shuts them up pretty quick!

Unaccompanied groups, not sponsored by a member, are the kiss of death.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yesterday, we had a two-some that were a freebie play and they brought their packed lunch into the bar and ate. I thought about raring up but wanted to check on their names and thought it might be better to write. They were guests of one of our corporatemembers so my channel will have to be through them. I would imagine the corporate member will feel extremely embarrassed.
On a seperate note I think charity 4 ball begs doubled last year.

[archie_struthers]

 


not every place can be a Merion, Shinnecock  , San Francisco Golf , Royal County Down or any clubs of similar ilk really don't have a problem filling a membership. The quality of the golf , history of the club and status pretty much guarantee a full deck at all times, MY answer to the question was more for the club that most golfers would be able to join .  

Bruce Katona addressed the membership limits in the Northeast/ Middle Atlantic  as to tee time availability and I'd concur that it starts getting dicey as the the number of member exceeds 300.   Most of the pressure for tee times is on Friday afternoons and weekends, peaking mid-summer and holiday weekends. For this reason we developed a tiered membership which consists of full, weekday and social memberships at our club at the Jersey Shore.

After some initial griping from some of the membership, who thought the idea of a weekday membership  made the the club less private , the concept has worked well . Lots of our super seniors, who play with some leagues , have opted for same. The restrictions on weekend play are in season only.

 For many of our folks Greate Bay is a second club  , or third, with lots of Philadelphia emigres that are members at North Hills , Philly Country , Saucon Valley and the like. These folks have summer homes in Ocean CIty , Margate or Longport.  In that they are already paying one membership in Philly, and some with Florida dues as well. For this reason we can't be too pricey . and we need to provide the quality experience they are used to. Not an easy task , but at least we have a great location to draw from. Our proximity to the shore towns , we are only 5 minutes to the beach ( with no traffic) and all the residents have to pass us to get to our competitiors. In a business of slight edges , location is our biggest advantage. But , we still have to provide the services that make a club fun .

As much as some of the members here love Hidden Creek , who is one of our competitors , we have some strong logisitcal advantages that makes it hard for them to compete with us for members !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

5 minutes from the beach is a tremendous asset.

That's where the summer folk live.

Never underestimate convenience

[Adrian_Stiff]

Archie- The 5 day member was very popular here in the UK a lot of clubs have dropped it more recently figuring that the weekend members get out maybe once on a weekend, the 5 day boys (often retired) get out twice, yet the weekend ones pay more. Its probably a product of people living longer. When I first started greenkeeping, almost no one played midweek. Times have changed, that 5 day situ can work good for some.

[Roger Wolfe]

Yesterday, we had a two-some that were a freebie play and they brought their packed lunch into the bar and ate. I thought about raring up but wanted to check on their names and thought it might be better to write. They were guests of one of our corporatemembers so my channel will have to be through them. I would imagine the corporate member will feel extremely embarrassed.
On a seperate note I think charity 4 ball begs doubled last year.

Hey Adrian,

Does your club accept cash?  We run into this all the time.  The guest is so appreciative of being
allowed to come use the course he is hesitant to ring F&B to his member sponsor's account.  This
is probably not the case in the scenario listed above... but I have seen it happen here.  Noone has
brown bagged it... but they have sit in the bar drinking water until I INSIST they have a drink on
the club!

[Roger Wolfe]

One of my clubs...

Tommy... that is all you have to say.  You can join our club whenever you are ready!

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