[Bart Bradley]

In Jeff Dawson's latest video (www.Dawsongolf.com), he and Ran discuss the difficulties of building a great membership.  Are they correct in their assertion?  How do you guys think, in today's world, that you go about crafting a membership to make a great club?  I think that it is an interesting question and one, to which, that I don't know the answer.

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

The first answer is, slowly.  If your finances are such that you need to sign up a lot of members quickly, you can't afford to be very choosy.

In some ways, though, I object to the question.  Many of the clubs which say they want to "craft" a membership wind up being elitist, instead of finding a healthy cross-section of the community.

I think if I was in charge of a club, I'd require every new member to serve on a club committee the first couple of years.  You'd find out pretty fast if they were interested in the greater good that way.  But in the current economy, it's a silly discussion ... there are very few clubs which have the luxury of turning away potential members.

[PCCraig]

Another nice conversation, thanks for posting.

I agree with some of the points made in the video in that I think the best way to grow a "great" membership is to not build a club for everyone (by building a pool, banquet hall, stable, etc...), but build the type of club and course with a purpose that will attract the type of membership you want. Want a low-key golfing heavy have a brat and a beer before you go home kind of place...build that, if you want a place you can take your family, you can build that too.

However, Tom D is right in that the best way is to build it slowly over time, which many modern clubs don't have so it doesn't seem like a realistic approach.

[Jonathan Cummings]

TD - I've been on the board of Maryland's largest flying club for the past 20 years and I bet it's like many social groups including golf clubs.  You'd never in a million years get some members to participate.  Whoever coined the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 expression was spot on.  Year after year in our flying club about 1/3 of the membership are active participants, 1/3 occasional participants and the remaining third you never hear from.  JC

[Mac Plumart]

I think Tom nailed it...slowly and require committee work.  This way you won't have to take every applicant and you will have people who care about contributing to the club and not just looking to take from the club.  I personally like it.

Pat Craig makes a nice point to regarding building the type of club that will attract the members you want...golf only or family stlye.

But I would add in the fact that the club needs to have ample funds prior to starting.  This will help with the idea of growing slowly...as you don't need to take people's money to survive.  Also, no debt...as you won't be forced to generate revenue to make interest payments.  I could go on and on about this aspect, but I think you get the point.

Now people might say...well then not many clubs will be built.  Right!!  I think we are in an over-built situation right now, too much competition makes profitability (or sustainability) too difficult.  And also, if you take the time to built the right type of club for your target market and you start off on firm financial footing...things will go very well in due time.

Great topic!

[Bart Bradley]

Tom Doak:

I don't think the question that I asked is offensive...A great membership should be multiculturally and socioeconomically diverse.  I was, in no way, suggesting that a "great membership" would be elitist!

Bart

[Sean_A]

I find the question perplexing.  There are very few people on the outside of memberships that that can really know what a membership is like.  Additionally, what does a great membership mean?  The answer to this question is far too varied to nail down.  I strongly suspect that the number of great memberships far outweighs the number of great courses.  To be honest, this is a step too far and not one folks on the outside can really dabble in.

Ciao   

[archie_struthers]

 

Gold requires more than one template in ordet to succeed in a given market. Obviously the golf course needs to be in good shape and Playable to attract the greatest customer base .  It can't be too hard ....too easy is much better to grow business

hospitality and food , though difficult to do well, need to be evaluated based on demand, no rocket science here, some clubs can benefit financially from weddings and banquets , some can't.  YOu need good mamagement , a talented but cost conscious chef  and plenty of parking to do it right.  In a perfect world you can run the golf and wedding businesses with just enough interaction for linkage, but either runs indepently and doesn't infringe on the space of the other...a little thing but sometimes the interface isn't pretty, as each customer feels it's their club or in the wedding parties case , their day!

When it comes to a competitive business like golf, you need to make it fun !  Special events and tournaments for the members work quite well , and allowing them to include guests at a REASONABLE COST promotes membership growth and pride of ownership for the member....when someone has some free time they have to think of the golf club as a second home , where they can just go to say hello to friends , have a drink , a burger or hit a few balls or putts with fellow members  

you can't do enough thank you evets , for all levels of golfers, don't be afraid to do some scratch events ,as no oe typically doesn't like to hang around with good players , ( even though they can be curmudgeons at times  LOL )   people typically strive toplay better, and appreciate good scores and want to see how good players play their course..

   Promote participation  with good food  ( not necessarily fancy) and don't be afraid to post results thoughout the facility , most people like to see thier names on the board, whether as the club champ or the D flight or Super Senior Winner  ...they all make the club !r

at  Avalon , a local club where I used to be a member , they were good operators . When the c flight winner complained that he didn't get a parking space near the clubhouse like the club champ...they said so sorry and put up a sign with his name at the  outskirts of the parking lot ,  right near the trash bins , their sense of humor was awesome and the member was special , even as they made fun of his request....we all roared when we first saw the sign...good good management

there's nothing that can be done if there is too much inventory , the inevitable price wars will leave the last and strongest standing ..we're seeing it down here at the jersey shore and also in Philly as some clubs are dying a slow death, in spite of being good operators ....

[Sean_A]

Archie raises an interesting point about reasonable guest fees.  For you folks who may have a hand in setting guest fees, why are they set so high at American clubs?  Is there a rationale behind this?  I have heard the business about members don't like the idea of guests paying significantly less than themselves on an average round cost.  This seems rather an odd PoV to me.  I have also heard that it deters too many guests coming out.  This seems strange because numbers can easily be limited by other means rather than price. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Bart:

When you mention a 'great membership' in a club, what exactly do you mean by that? How would you define a 'great membership?' Would it be just a membership where most all the members generally get along with one another well?

Tom Doak mentioned that a club should populate up their membership slowly so they can apparently be choosy. He goes on to say if a club "crafts" their membership they might become elitist.

I'm not sure what's precisely meant by elitist but it probably means exclusionary to most people. I hate to say it but arguably some of the most successful memberships I've ever seen as far as getting along with one another and understanding one another well have been clubs that most consider to have elitist or exclusionary memberships for one reason or another.

It's probably just a result of human nature to want to be around people you sort of know and understand and feel comfortable around. It's probably just some vestige of the fact that humans are stilll a bit tribal, I guess.

[Bart Bradley]

Tom:

I don't exactly know what makes for a great membership...perhaps that should be a thread of its own.

For me the qualities of a great membership of any club would be:

1.  Diverse
2.  Active
3.  Tolerant
4.  Fun
5.  Curious
6.  Knowledgable (about the subject of the club, its architecture, its history)

I do think that the club members need to get along...but I don't think uniformity necessarily leads to that outcome (just look at the guys on this forum --- we have a lot of passion for GCA here, but the interpersonal relationships are a mixed bag).

Bart

[jim_lewis]

Fortunately, my lengthy post on this subject got lost before I could submit it. Here is a summary.
Since we can't agree on judging courses, which we can actually see and play, we are now going to try and agree on our evaluation of memberships. Maybe if we all post a group photo of our membership, we can get feedback from this discussion group on how it is to be judged. In my private life (club) I enjoy associating with people with whom I have a lot in common.
Now I understand why this forum is called GolfClubAtlas and not GolfCourseAtlas.

[Mike_Young]

Bart:

When you mention a 'great membership' in a club, what exactly do you mean by that? How would you define a 'great membership?' Would it be just a membership where most all the members generally get along with one another well?

Tom Doak mentioned that a club should populate up their membership slowly so they can apparently be choosy. He goes on to say if a club "crafts" their membership they might become elitist.

I'm not sure what's precisely meant by elitist but it probably means exclusionary to most people. I hate to say it but arguably some of the most successful memberships I've ever seen as far as getting along with one another and understanding one another well have been clubs that most consider to have elitist or exclusionary memberships for one reason or another.

It's probably just a result of human nature to want to be around people you sort of know and understand and feel comfortable around. It's probably just some vestige of the fact that humans are stilll a bit tribal, I guess.

Tom,
I think you are correct above....
The post saying all should serve on a committee...not for me....Donkeys were built by commttee...
I think there are two key components to building a great membership...a good benevolent dicktater and a small functional clubhouse....
And have Jackie Burke as a consultant....

[Steve Lang]

  simply offer a great experience at good value and they will come.. and share .. and some will go..

[Dean Stokes]

simply offer a great experience at good value and they will come.. and share .. and some will go..

Correct. You do not build a good membership. You build a good course with a comfortable well serviced clubhouse. You hire knowledgeable and friendly staff who 'get it' and you price it accordingly. Don't worry you will get a good membership.

Even clubs that I have worked at the try to 'build' a good membership, never get it totally correct.

[Jason Connor]

Everyone has a different opinion of great membership. 

I would say to a guy whose goal is create a benevolent dictatorship that he must

(a) define his goals / aims for the club clearly
(b) make these goals / aims widely known
(c) don't be afraid to reject those not meeting the criteria.
(d) let word of mouth work. 

The best way to get new members is to have reliable members recruit guys they know and trust will live up to the criteria.

My ideal club is a group of guys who take golf, but not themselves, seriously.  A group of guys who care more about leaving the course in better shape than they found it than in winning a $2 nassau.  A group of guys who will smile when a competitor drains a big putt to seal a huge come from behind win, realizes you can't win them all, and appreciates that a bad day on a golf course is better than a good day at work.

... and that play fast while carrying their clubs.

[Mac Plumart]

The term great membership can only be defined by a great business plan.

Pat Craig touched on it in his post...define if you are a golf only club or a family club.  That will help define the basic definition of a great membership for your club.

If you are a family club a great membership will have lots of family participation.  The course needs to be family friendly, welcoming to juniors, women, higher handicaps.  To help facilitate this the club needs to have a pool, tennis courts, and other family style activities.

If it is to be a great golf club only, then of course it needs to have a great golf course and probably more than one.  If you want to be known as a club with great golfers then only allow in single digit handicaps.

I don't think anyone needs to get work up about this and talk about elitist clubs, etc...the club needs to define what it wants to be in its business plan.  That is all.

Per TOm Paul's comments about great memberships having people in similar demographics, I personally think he is right.  One of the happiest   countries in the world is Denmark.  They have some of the highest taxes in th world.  But they have said they are so happy because they don't mind giving money to people who are just like them in appreance and values.  (This is according to a tv decumnetary aI watched about a year ago).  Therefore, I think this mindframe would aplly to clubs as weel.  People like to hang around with people who are just like them in demographics, values, and beliefs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The first answer is, slowly. 

Tom, you are so right, that is A critical element

If your finances are such that you need to sign up a lot of members quickly, you can't afford to be very choosy.

Sad but true.
I think Ken Bakst is probably the "poster boy" for going about it the right way.
But, unfortunately, financial pressures have tainted almost every selection process

In some ways, though, I object to the question. 
Many of the clubs which say they want to "craft" a membership wind up being elitist, instead of finding a healthy cross-section of the community.

That too is also sad but true.

I think if I was in charge of a club, I'd require every new member to serve on a club committee the first couple of years. 
In the long run, The admission's Chairman/committee is really the most important chair/comittee at a club.

You'd find out pretty fast if they were interested in the greater good that way.  But in the current economy, it's a silly discussion ... there are very few clubs which have the luxury of turning away potential members.

Tom, clubs that didn't get themselves in debt,  clubs that didn't try to be all things to all members, clubs that didn't try to keep up with the Jones's and spend, spend, spend, will retain and attract a better quality membership because they can be selective, they can afford to reject an unsuitable candidate.  Unfortunately, many, if not most clubs didn't position themselves properly when times were good.

Today, for a new clulb, building a quality, sustainable membership is difficult to impossible

[Bill_McBride]

TD - I've been on the board of Maryland's largest flying club for the past 20 years and I bet it's like many social groups including golf clubs.  You'd never in a million years get some members to participate.  Whoever coined the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 expression was spot on.  Year after year in our flying club about 1/3 of the membership are active participants, 1/3 occasional participants and the remaining third you never hear from.  JC

It's nice of those non-participants to keep sending in those monthly checks, we'd be sunk otherwise!

[Bill_McBride]

Archie raises an interesting point about reasonable guest fees.  For you folks who may have a hand in setting guest fees, why are they set so high at American clubs?  Is there a rationale behind this?  I have heard the business about members don't like the idea of guests paying significantly less than themselves on an average round cost.  This seems rather an odd PoV to me.  I have also heard that it deters too many guests coming out.  This seems strange because numbers can easily be limited by other means rather than price. 

Ciao

This drives me crazy too.  Our club charges about $100 guest fee including tax, which I think is about double what it ought to be (I was off the board and no longer golf chair when this happened, after our new course was built).

There are a couple of problems with high guest fees.  You may be reluctant to invite business associates out for a round at that price point.  You can miss out on prospective members.

I don't have a problem with a higher tier of guest fees for unaccompanied guests, but I'd prefer a rate under $50 for a guest playing with a member.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak:

I don't think the question that I asked is offensive...A great membership should be multiculturally and socioeconomically diverse.  I was, in no way, suggesting that a "great membership" would be elitist!


Bart,

Could you name ten great clubs that meet your criteria ?

Actually,  I'll settle for five.

I don't agree that the mandate for a great membership has to be that the membership is multicultural and socioeconomically diverse, especially when you consider that belonging to a club is a luxury.

You can't have members who can barely afford to belong influencing the decisions on capital improvements, repairs, conditioning, etc., etc..   Once a club caters to the lowest common denomiator, it's on it's way to no longer being a well run, attractive club, or viable club.  If the superintendent indicates that the irrigation system is shot and a new one is needed, almost on an emergency basis, you can't have large elements of you membership opposed to solving the problem because it costs money.

And, you have to differentiate between a GOLF club and a COUNTRY club.

As an admissions chairman at a golf club, one of my first criteria would be, DO THEY EMBRACE THE CULTURE OF "GOLF",
Will they fit in with the other members ?  Will they integrate within the entire framework of the club, utilizing the pro shop, dinning facilities, club tournaments and club functions ?  Can they afford the club and the potential obligations that are a part of most clubs.
And, have they demonstrated a charitable conscience, either by contributing their money and/or their time to worthy causes.

If I'm a member at a club, I don't want any new members admited, PRIMARILY because they represent the club becoming more multicultural or more socioeconimcally diverse.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

You're so right.

When was the last time you were in a park and saw a statue commemorating a committee.

In theory, prospective members join clubs because they like them.

Today, new members join and the first thing they want to do is change them.

Keep new members off committees.  Keep committees small

Promote DICTATORS

[Jason Connor]

I like the donkey line Mike, I hadn't heard that one before.

Perhaps instead of make everyone join a committee members should have to take turns coming in early one morning & raking traps, filling divots and repairing ball marks.

It would identify who cares about the course and who is willing to do the little things to make everyone's experience better.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Everyone will have different wants out of a golf club and so a membership to someone may be great and to another not suitable. Someone mentioned the 1/3rd 1/3rd 1/3rd scenario and its probably fair that only a 1/3rd of your membership really use the clubhouse, so by defenition the majority are not interested in the stuff (clubhouse). I think clubteams, lots of competitions, interaction between members is what UK members want out of their clubs. I think the 'choosey membership' usually based on wealth is exactly what golf should not be about, personally I like the idea that a 15 year old schoolboy can get paired up with a bank manager and the bank manager is in awe of the young players game and the 15 year old does not care if his partner is a bank manager or gravedigger. That to me is a great membership. Swinley Forest type memberships is not what the world needs.

[Mark Chaplin]

People tend to gravitate towards groups where they will be accepted, Adrian you may not like the SF type of membership although in the heathland belt the memberships tend to be pretty similar - good school/university & the professions. SF has a very small membership for UK clubs hence the exclusiveness.

There are a number of clubs where I would love to play my golf but would never feel comfortable at, I would therefore never consider joining them.

All of the new "exclusive" clubs in the UK are exclusive on cash not status or class, from my experience this produces a less pleasant experience than the exisisting slowly evolved memberships.

Finally Bill you are spot on with guest fees, I was looking at an American club diary where the member/guest day was $450 and a member roll up with dinner $150. That is very leggy fortunately over here guest fees tend to be such thst you can treat your guest as just that, your guest. You need to be pretty friendly with a guy to pay his fee at Merion.

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