If Newport and Maidstone were

[Patrick_Mucci]

public courses, would golfers shy away from them due to their "natural" conditions ?

Does the retail golfer allow conditioning to trump quality architecture ?

[Michael Blake]

Does the retail golfer allow conditioning to trump quality architecture ?

Mr. Mucci,

I'd say that's a big yes.  From my experience playing public courses over the years with friends, the most important consideration for them is how green the course is.  Architecture is not even part of the equation.  I'd consider them a core sample of the retail golfer.

[Chris Flamion]

Yes, Unfortunately.  My local Muni sometimes actually has signs apologizing for how firm the fairways are......

Luckily it is a solid course so I still play 3-4 rounds a week.

[PThomas]

Yes, Unfortunately.  My local Muni sometimes actually has signs apologizing for how firm the fairways are......

yikes, never heard of that one!

send them my kudos for saving water!

[PThomas]

Patrick, if anyone was dumb enough to shy away from either of those courses - esp Newport - due to their conditions, than shame on them...and anyone dumb enough to do that doesnt deserve to play such quality courses!

[Rob Rigg]

Open up all the great private courses - make them play as F&F as ever - then everyone in the Treehouse can enjoy them at will and the rest of the golfing public will stay away - they don't even have to make the courses public - just semi-private - woo hoo!

[Robert Emmons]

Interesting question since the Maidstone green super job is open. What would a applicant have to say about current and future conditions......RHE

[John Mayhugh]

public courses, would golfers shy away from them due to their "natural" conditions ?

Does the retail golfer allow conditioning to trump quality architecture ?

Absolutely. 

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You're certainly back with a vengeance! 

Awesome questions, lately.   Have you been saving them up all these years?   

I find myself caring little about conditions these day....the only thing that I seem to mind is a course that's wet when it's not raining.

[archie_struthers]

 


Ye , yes  and yes .....over the last three decades (hey Mucci , I'll be a senior amateur soon watch out)   conditons have trumped all else , and most people don't appreciate the maintenance meld most on board love to see .... firm and fast becomes hard and burned out LOL!

Nothing more fun than playing on a course with the perfect maintenance meld , and then gettign into the grill room and hearing players bemoaning that the greens didn't hole their "low flying wedges "  aka skulls  

oh well ...not all can appreciate fine food either ... pass me the A-1 and shove the bernaise

[Joe Bentham]

the golf course I grew up playing is funniest in the summer when the course is brownish and the fairways are hard.  It is also the time of year that the members complain the most about the condition of the golf course.  They think green=good condition and they don't like the odd bounces that happen when the course is firm.  They would rather have a course that is saturated with water then a course that requires some thought on where to land your second shot. 
There is also a lot of complaining about the tightness of the fairways here in Bandon.
The point is, and I've tried to make it time and time again on here, that the average American golfer is clueless. 

[Mike Hendren]

What does any retail customer (i.e., consumer) want?  I'd say value and convenience first.  The quality of the product, however subjective that might be, is a distant third in today's world.   Price these courses under $50 and people line up.  Price Fisher's Island at $25?  Not so much given the time investment. 

Mike

[Greg Krueger]

Those are two great golf courses and though they may not be green, I'm pretty sure that the quality of turf is still excellent. So I am going to give the public some credit and say that those two places would be packed!

[Gary Slatter]

My guess is both courses would be sold out on a daily basis at $95.00 a pop if they were public.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly,

I'd disagree.

A member is a captive, he has to play there, irrespective of how he came to be a member, whereas the public access golfer has a choice when it comes to the product he selects for play.

In addition, members HAVE to accept the conditions of the course, they have no choice, whereas, the public access golfer has a choice, he doesn't have to spend his money to play on a course that he perceives as a "cow pasture".  He'll opt for greener pastures.

[Cliff Hamm]

Newport may not water their fairways but it is rare that they are not shades of green.  I won't disagree that conditioning matters to the average golfer, but Newport more then surpasses the test.  Also, considering the paucity of quality public golf in RI, Newport would do exceedingly well unless priced in the stratosphere.

[Sean_A]

Newport is a famous course and it would get loads of business based just on that.  No, Newport would do just fine as a public course.  I am not nearly as confident.  I am less confident about Maidstone, but I think enough people would go for it, again, because of some name recognition. 

Jeepers, I played Rye this past September it had to have the ropiest conditions (as measured against Pennard which I usually think of scrape the barrell conditions) I have seen at a top ranked course, yet folks line up to pay £90.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

You and others are missing the point.

It's not about the name, it's about the product.

Pretend the name is The East End Club, (Maidstone) and Rocky Shores (Newport)

[Sean_A]

Sean Arble,

You and others are missing the point.

It's not about the name, it's about the product.

Pretend the name is The East End Club, (Maidstone) and Rocky Shores (Newport)

Patrick

So we are now talking about two joe blow publics?  In that case I would expect the public to treat them as they do any joe blow courses.  Golfers are a diverse lot and I would hesitate to pigeon hole them.

Ciao

[Cliff Hamm]

Pat..I do believe that Rocky Shores would do just fine.  Name recognition would mean higher fees, so Rocky Shores would charge less.   The comparison I give you is Newport National.  Excellent public course.  Runs fast and firm,weather permitting, but is always green.  Greens fees are $100 plus for out of staters and course gets lots of play.  Yes, I do believe Rocky Shores would do just fine unless totally brown and even then I think it would be ok.

[jeffwarne]

Sean Arble,

You and others are missing the point.

It's not about the name, it's about the product.

Pretend the name is The East End Club, (Maidstone) and Rocky Shores (Newport)

Maidstone/East End Club wounld be booked solid as it's a great course in an area starved for good public access golf.
If Long Island  National can charge $120 + in a potato field nowhere near the water in Riverhead(25-60 minutes from areas of the Hamptons).....Maidstone would do just fine. (the halfway house alone would outgross most courses )

Montauk gets a premium for out of staters and is always packed and again is a long way from the water.

Actually, at Maidstone it's not browness or firmness from LACK of irrigation that is offputting, but rather the soft conditions and incredibly grassy fairways which are far often more prevelant(aside from dry July's and August) due to it low lying and poor draining nature.
Even if the publinx player mistakenly disliked the wonderful firm and fastness of an ideal July/August, the supply demand equation of that season would cause the course to be booked solid anyway-just drive by the local executive course and count the BMW's and Mercedes
Most public golfers would enjoy the lushness of the other months and the greens are usually excellent.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

And the same can be said about Seminole.  When I played there a week or so ago, I brought my father along and had to “prep” him a bit on the drive up that they like things a little “brown” over there. He belongs to a club back in Phila., and when in Florida he’d rather move around than be tied down to one course (and woman for that matter!).  So the courses he plays tend to be the higher-end daily-fee Florida courses – flat, lots of water, green, manicured.  But, as the round went on I think his appreciation for this firm, fast, and natural-looking appearance made an impression.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

You had the benefit of one to one conversations regarding conditions, but, how do we get the majority of golfers to understand that quality playing conditions are more important than looks ?

If TV announcers would promote quality playing conditions over green looks it might be a start, but, with the visual medium and the desire for beautiful contrast, why would TV promote conditions that aren't as photogenic ?

Is the British Open our only hope ?

[George Pazin]

I have seen more than enough jammed baked out munis to know that the courses would be packed regardless. Only a sky high price would keep folks away.

Although I will say that most golfers think of conditioning first when evaluating a course.

[Tim Pitner]

Doesn't the success of the Bandon Dunes resort answer this question in large part?  Many retail golfers will embrace natural conditions, at least if the course is near the ocean and marketed properly. 

There are other factors at work here besides private vs. public.  Regional issues, for example.  I know many private club members in the Midwest who scoff at any golf course that dosn't fit the traditional, tree-lined country club model.  Links courses and conditions and the prairie links style courses are entirely lost on them.  If you took away the pedigrees at Newport and Maidstone, I'm sure these courses would be lost on them as well.