[Scott Stearns]

Schack's quote today reminded me of a discussion we had last year on MVGG

"The job of a finishing hole is as clearly defined as the job of a dance-hall bouncer. It has to maintain order, clear out the amateurs, preserve the dignity of the game. You never play No. 18 at Riviera with a drive and a wedge. The most famous second shot in history played to it was a full 3-wood with a full turn and a loud grunt by Dave Stockton in 1974. If it were not for No. 18 at Riviera, a 61-year-old man would have won the L.A. Open that year. It's the job of an 18th hole to see those things don't happen. "   JIM MURRAY


Muirfield's 18th is tough--REALLY tough tee shot, 6-7 iron to elevated, super slick green.  I like it as it asks for a specific typer of tee shot (albeit the specific go-to shot of the builder) and even if you execute, 5 is still in play from the fairway.  Birdie is really hard.

 

[PThomas]

i hate all those bunkers Jack put in down the right side a few years ago

[Brian Phillips]

The very reason you like the hole (in that it requires one type of tee shot) makes it in my eyes a poor hole.  The more ways a hole can be won or birdied or eagled the better the finishing hole. I would rather have a hole that requires some imagination and thought than just thumping a fading driver and 6-7 iron in.

The 18th at TOC has the widest finishing fairway in tournament golf but is also one of the best, without one bunker!

[Kalen Braley]

This is an interesting aerial I found on Google.  The satellites just happened to be overhead when they were doing the work adding all the bunkers.  I had no idea they added so many new ones.  Perhaps as technology gets even better the string of bunkers will go all the way down the right side to the hole! 

[Bill_Yates]

I think the posts above clearly describe the way GCA can serve the many tastes of the game's players.  Perhaps it even provides an example of strategic vs. penal architecture styles. 

The strategic choices made on TOC 18th tee is one form of engagement or perhaps entertainment for the player.  Is there really one "best" way to play the hole? 

On the other hand, when playing the 18th at MVCC, the "best" choice for the player has been predetermined by the architect.  Any  line other than the best line will incrementally penalize the player for not making the right choice and the right shot. 

Looking at Kalen's overhead view, and remembering my one and only trip to MVCC with a tour of the course provided by Desmond Muirhead, I believe that the "best" (not the only) line to play is to the right side of the fairway, tempting the bunkers.  This opens the green up and shortens the shot required.  The trick is to have the ball stay on the right side of the fairway, as it is canted from right to left.  To do that the player should probably play a fade off the tee.

So, following Jim Murray's philosophy, this great finishing hole will separate the thinkers and shot shapers from the rest of the field. 

[Brian Phillips]

So, following Jim Murray's philosophy, this great finishing hole will separate the thinkers and shot shapers from the rest of the field. 

Bill,

In the days of persimmon and/or a soft ball I would tend to agree with you.  However, these days all most players will do on that tee is choose a line that fits their own carry and do just that.

The green in the "old" days would require a high draw to the back left position but now a high anything will get there.

[Bill_Yates]

Brian
I would agree with you. 

So are we then back to the discussion about technology ruining the game?  Or is there still one "best" way to play the hole using an R9 driver and a Pro V1?

[Doug Sobieski]

When they added those bunkers a few years ago, I had suggested that a better, i.e. more funny, solution would have been to simply erect a driving range net down the right side. If it was 40'-50' high, it would have served the same purpose, and the penalty for not carrying it would have been more interesting. Players could have to shape the ball around the net.

It would be cheaper to maintain, too. I still think it's a good idea 

[Ron Farris]

A friend of mine helped build those new bunkers.  He is very proud of his work, as he should be.
I played the hole a long time ago, back when one of my capabilities wouldn't even think of going right off the tee.
I enjoyed the hole by hitting a driver-seven iron about 12 feet above the hole.  With extreme green speed at the time, I was happy to have par, and break 80.  July 1981 as my third round of the year.  Sad, but good at the time.

Now with the technology, I can understand the logic of bunkers for touring pros.

[Ian Dalzell]

Had the good fortune to play MV this past summer, and what a treat that was.  I think 18 is really a great hole, invites you to shape the ball OR take on the right side bunkering.  I took my 3-wood, because I can move it left to right much easier, and of course it didn't cut so I ended up in the left edge of the fairway, 6-iron to the right edge of the green to a left edge pin and had a really cool chip shot that I had to throw up the back of the green and let it sling off the back fringe and down to the front left pin.

MV was the course of 2009 that exceeded my expectations in every way.  The experience was phenomenal, the architecture to me was awesome (not usually a huge JN fan, or Desmond Muirhead for that matter) and the only problem I have is to figure out how to get to see it again!

Good stuff.

Ian

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