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Ran Morrissett

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Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« on: February 05, 2010, 09:46:34 AM »
There are maybe twenty to thirty of us who have been hanging around this site for ten plus year ( we now go through in six hours the number of page views that we once did in a month) and it is fair to ask/wonder: How has this site changed, if at all, your views on golf course architecture?

One way this site has changed my own personal view is that I now consider William Flynn to be among my all-time favorite architects. Part of my tardiness for coming to this conclusion was that I grew up at the James River Course at Country Club of Virginia. It was plenty fine but no one confuses it for having strokes of genius splashed across it. At the time, popular history had it as an untouched Flynn course, leaving me with an impression that Flynn was more functional than brilliant. Turns out that though Flynn did a routing, it was never implemented and that the James River course was not a Flynn design after all. Next up for this Virginia boy was playing and experiencing the Cascades, which most emphatically is a Flynn design but time, especially recently, has been cruel to the course, thus undermining it as a showcase for Flynn's talent.

Despite those two poor benchmarks, my opinion changed thanks to the steady drumbeat of information on Flynn that Wayne has provided over the years. Along with Tom Paul, they have compiled 2047 pages (!!) in a five volume set entitled The Nature Faker, William S. Flynn, Golf Architect, which puts Flynn in perspective like never before. This will soon be made available on DVD as well. Obviously, the man who built Shinnecock was a rare talent and a true craftsman but it is fascinating to understand how he became so. His background in agronomy, how large Pine Valley loomed over the Philadelphia School, and of course his role at Merion all played into making Flynn one of the game's most prescient architects. His writing for the USGA Green Section is freakily accurate to this day and his vision is no doubt one of the reasons that his gems like Lancaster and The Country Club outside of Cleveland stand the test of time so well.

All of this and more are discussed within this month's Feature Interview with Wayne. In particular, it is fascinating to compare Flynn's routing at Country Club of York to that of Donald Ross's. One thing is for sure: Flynn's routing is a lot more than just high tee to low fairway to high green and I think it speaks as to the time he spent on site as opposed to just mailing in a routing from a topo map. See what you think.

Wayne is a one man Flynn society and has done more to frame Flynn's career than any other person. Unlike some researchers who are tetchy in sharing, Wayne has been very quick to help me and this site for a number of years and the walk around Merion with him during the rain-soaked practice round at the Walker Cup last year at Merion was eye-opening. Fortunately for us all,  Jeff Silverman and Wayne have teamed up to offer their research skills to clubs, architects, etc. I have read the first rate report that Wayne was involved with for The Homestead and it is a paint by the numbers of what was there and what needs to be done to restore the Cascades to the upper echelon. It is the exact sort of thing that every Golden Age club should pursue. More on this new service being offered by Wayne and Jeff at the end of this month's Feature Interview where we try to give one of the titans of the Golden Age credit for all that he did for the game.



This aerial of the sixth at Indian Creek highlights how Flynn used bunkers to great strategic effect - shy away from the nest of bunkers on the inside of the dogleg and enjoy a horrible angle into the green. Surely this hole is the equal of the more famous sixth at Seminole? 

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 11:47:40 AM »
Fantastic interview. Thanks to Ran and Wayne.

I'd love to know more (a lot more) on Flynn's work at TCC-Brookline as well as his work at Glen View Club outside Chicago.

When exactly is the five-volume set coming out officially and where will we be able to purchase it???  :)
H.P.S.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 11:59:59 AM »
"shy away from the nest of bunkers on the inside of the dogleg and enjoy a horrible angle into the green."

Huh? say I...it seems to me that you would want to be on the right side of the fairway, to avoid coming in over the tree and sand.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 01:27:40 PM »
Fascinating!

Much thanks to Ran and Wayne...

Mike Cirba

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 03:26:29 PM »
At 2074 pages that book better have a centerfold, Wayne!     :P   ;D

Great questions, excellent, informative answers

...thanks, Wayne & Ran!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 03:32:21 PM by Mike Cirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 07:15:44 PM »
Ran,

I never knew that Wayno had an interest in Golf Course Architecture, let alone the architect, William Flynn.

You say that Wayno and TEPaul are writing a voluminous book on Flynn... wow, that's amazing.

I was wondering why they didn't post anymore..... and now I know

Do you think they could write a book on C.B. Macdonald when they're done ?

Gib_Papazian

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 10:10:25 PM »
I can hardly believe my eyes.

"We are like old whores and bad architecture, if you hang around long enough you eventually get respectable."
-Jerry Garcia

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 10:17:27 PM »
Cheers for that Ran and Wayne

Sounds like you and I had similar tours around Merion = drenched  :)

mike_malone

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 12:25:07 AM »
 I wonder how the recent bunker work at Rolling Green affects Wayne's comment about the  "one bunker high and multiple low" on every par three.

  Thanks to Wayne for answering my question.

    It is a great interview for a Flynnophile like myself.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 10:47:36 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

ChipOat

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 11:12:22 AM »
I was especially interested in the discussion of #14 at Merion.  There has been a small group that favors a large carry bunker on the inside of the dogleg.  also, I was pleased to read that the left greenside bunker may be put back in time for the '13 Open.  That was NOT a good place to be with a back left flagstick!

JC Jones

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 12:44:32 PM »
Was Flynn known for moving a lot of earth?

The history of Seminole suggests that Ross was competing with another architect for the job but that Ross won because his bid was lower, due to the fact that the other guy wanted to flatten the dune ridges.  Given that Flynn was active at this time in Southeast Florida, could it have been him who was competing with Ross?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 01:58:33 PM »
JC:

It's always been my feeling that if Flynn felt it necessary he would move a lot of earth to make it look like he hadn't move much at all.


Ran:

I don't see it mentioned in the section on the 14th in the interview, but the story I heard years ago from the man who was Merion's Green Chairman at the time and I believe the chairman of the US Open Committee ('71 or '81) the idea from the club was to put that carry bunker in on the left tee shot on #14 and the USGA essentially told them if they messed around with the architecture that way on a classic course like that they wouldn't agree to bring the US Open to Merion. My, how the worm turns, huh?  ;)

(For an unlimited amount of bonus points who can tell me who that green chairman was and what his connection to Oakmont was? Hint---it's no wonder a bunker in there (as per one of Flynn's plans?) was his inclination. Another hint as articulated to me----eg his green chairman philosophy was "just keep up the tees, fairways and greens and everything else can take care of itself---sort of! ;) ).

Frankly, I like that mound and chipping area in place of that old left greenside bunker. I think it particularly makes good players steer a bit to the right and towards those right side bunkers as they know if they hit that mound wrong it isn't hard for their ball to bounce right onto the road and OB.

Removing that bunker was very controversial with the membership though and it seems on balance more are in favor of restoring that greenside bunker than are in leaving it as it is now with that mound and chipping area all the way to the road. The ones who like it least say it's the only place on the course that has anything like that.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:05:05 PM by TEPaul »

Tim Liddy

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 08:43:26 AM »
Great interview and nice to know this type of work is occurring in golf course architecture. It is very inspiring.

Question: why not put the 2000 pages on the web and charge for access to the information (annual fee)?  With this much information it would seem a more practical way to disseminate the information. We will all be reading it on our IPad anyway.

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 09:26:14 AM »
Good point Tim. If it were me I would put it on the web for sorta, kinda, well, like some simulacrum of free but Wayne would shoot me because he has about nine gazillion hours or research and writing into this tome and I have about 2-3 good hours into it but my hours into it and resulting contribution is immaculate beyond all imagination. With all the work he put into this thing he very much deserves the big bucks. So what do you suggest the fee should be to access it all on the web?  ;)

Here's a couple of suggestions:

1. You and everyone else could get together and pay Wayno a minimum of about 100,000 smackers,

OR

2. You and everyone else could get together and supply me with an annual contribution of about ten cases of the finest red wine extant (with just a few bottle of white thrown in to keep the girls happy). If you chose the latter Wayne will try to come over here and shoot me but from my vantage point in the barn/office at Golf Architecture Central on this farm I can see him coming down the driveway and I could pick him off no problem before he got even halfway down here.

The choice is yours. Thinkaboutit!  ;)

PS:
If you happen to choose my option I just might think about supplying you with a copy of the original HH Barker Merion East stick routing as well as all five plans done by the Wilson committee, including a super secret report about what the Wilson committee really thought of Macdonald and Whigam.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 09:30:23 AM by TEPaul »

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 09:51:02 AM »
TEPaul-

When will the volumes be made available to the masses?
H.P.S.

ChipOat

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 10:15:36 AM »
Tom,

Observations: 1) There is now a watering system and that mound on #14 (and the surrounding ground area) is no longer rock hard a la 1930. 2) The 1.68" ball doesn't skitter along the ground like the 1.62" ball did in 1930.  3) Steel shafts + other technology result in higher ball flight than in 1930.

Conclusion:  The original downside penalty of messing with that mound (i.e. running left and through the O.B.) is no longer as likely and, hence, the architect's original strategy for the hole has been compromised/diluted for the 3 reasons above.

I think Flynn recognized that and I think the bunker he installed was a superb response.  I hope it is replaced and I hope it's even deeper and more penal than the one that was removed about 8 years ago in order to restore the degree of difficulty that Flynn intended when he built the original.

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2010, 10:46:15 AM »
Chip:

I would say all your three reasons are probably valid. On the other hand, I think I might suggest that for fairly obvious reasons it is now a lot more challenging to recover from the other side of that mound to any pin than it would be from a bunker or from the other side of a bunker in the same place that mound now is.

Also, when the US Open rolls around and if the weather cooperates do not put it past Matt Shaeffer to have all the ground of Merion East every bit as hard and firm and fast as William Flynn ever did.  ;)

JESII

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2010, 11:20:28 AM »
Tommy,

It's just not possible that the recovery shots are more difficult without the bunker there than they were with it...also, the bunker's presence alone forces you to the right off the tee if the pin is back there...a grassy knoll doesn't scare anybody...

Mike Cirba

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2010, 12:46:03 PM »
Tommy,

...a grassy knoll doesn't scare anybody...


Tell that to the Warren Commission.   

George Pazin

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2010, 02:11:19 PM »
Wonderfully thorough interview, I am going to have to reread it several times. Thanks, Wayne, for the very thoughtful answers, and Ran as always for excellent questions and forum.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

ward peyronnin

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 05:34:16 PM »
I remember well playing Shinnecock with Ted Sturges and Tom Doak and the Green Committee chair. After a very wet day we retired to the clubhouse to dry out.

Found Tom in front of a framed blueprint of the routing and he expressed his admiration, upon seeing the totality and cant of the holes, how clever Flynn was to consistently find strategically signifcant placements for his bunkers that minimized their exposure to the prevailing winter winds and therefore reduced by as much as possible the blowout over those severe months.

Hell I was impressed by Tom's recognition of it and by Flynn's practice of it
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2010, 10:16:26 AM »
I've yet to see a Flynn course that I didn't find magical.

John Kirk

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 07:42:42 PM »
Congratulations, Wayne.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 08:59:14 AM »
Enjoyed the interview.
In regards to the 2000 page book, I wonder if there is any reason why the story of Flynn and his work could not be edited down to 250 to 300 pages like the Mackenzie book, the Ross book and the CBM book? Obviously it is 2000 pages because wayne has that much information, but that does not necessarily mean all that info should be included. personally I'd buy a book on Flynn of a normal size or a DVD.
cheers Neil

TEPaul

Re: Feature Interview with Wayne Morrison is posted
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 09:25:23 AM »
Neil:

That is being considered as a distinct option.

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