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Ran Morrissett

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The sleepers at Rye
« on: February 04, 2010, 10:15:04 PM »
The sleepers at the second, third and fourteenth greens at Rye GC are, in my experience, unique in the world of golf. They prevent the golfer from taking the easiest/safest recovery option should he find himself on short grass between the sleepers in question and the aforementioned greens.

Is this good design? I wonder when they first appeared? And who thought of them? Was it cheaper to install sleepers as a hazard than a bunker?

I admit to being blind to any weaknesses at one of my world top 25 courses but has anyone every questioned their design merit? Clearly, these two to eight inch sleepers are 100% artificial and yet they reside on one of the world's most natural links. They aren't there for support or any other reason that I am discern. However, they do add variety and their idiosyncratic nature is simply accepted by the Rye members and guests as part of Rye's charm. Why is it easier to accept an odd, unnatural feature on a links course than elsewhere?

Putting is both the easier and safer recovery shot in all three situations at Rye as the turf is so tight. Yet, the golfer is precluded from taking it. Despite the variety they add, is this good design where the easier and safer shot is extinguished? I wonder.

Cheers,

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 10:52:09 PM »
I'm looking at your write-up (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/rye1) but don't see the sleepers you mention in the first picture (14 green.)  Any pictures, as I've not seen the course?  Thank you.
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John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 11:39:25 PM »
I've been meaning to post some photos of Rye but haven't gotten to it yet.

The sleepers are memorable.  On 14, two of us were affected by them.  The turf is so firm, you really have to get lucky with the lie to play a pitch over them (or have some real skill), but the ground option does get taken away.  Less of a penalty than a bunker might be, but you sure don't want to hit one of them.

I didn't make it over to the sleeper side of the second green, but here are pics of the third and 14th.  I cropped out the sleeper section so it's a bit easier to see.








Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 12:02:44 AM »
Ran:

Gil Hanse and I put a small line of sleepers like that to the right of the 13th green at The Legends (Heathland).  And it looked like he did it a couple of places at Castle Stuart, based on some pictures I've seen.  Other than those instances, I've never seen them anywhere else.

They are a really effective, dirt-cheap hazard.  But they aren't going to be acceptable to most golfers in most places.  We probably could have gotten away with them at Old Macdonald, but I don't know that Macdonald ever saw Rye ... and I doubt the sleepers really go back that far there.  I've got a Rye history book in my office, I wonder if it says anything about them?

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 12:14:26 AM »
Here are pictures from the Rye website that show the sleeper feature for the 2nd and 3rd.

I have no knowledge of the history.

It does look like one of them was not closely mown, when the picture was  taken, which would make the shot easier for those of us lesser skilled.

I'm not sure that good design necessarily means that there is always an easier and safer option for a shot.  If it was a small burn, instead of a sleeper wall,  which took away the putt option would that be considered bad design?  Granted, use of sleepers in this fashion is out of the norm, but that doesn't mean it's bad design.

Perhaps the history buffs can shed some light on why they came to be there.  I'd think there must have been a practical reason in the first instance.  Or maybe just a practical joker on the greens committee.

These kind of sleepers are not completely unique.  Castle Stuart has them on a few holes.  Mind you it's not an old course.









Michael Whitaker

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 01:00:41 AM »
Ran:

Gil Hanse and I put a small line of sleepers like that to the right of the 13th green at The Legends (Heathland).  And it looked like he did it a couple of places at Castle Stuart, based on some pictures I've seen.  Other than those instances, I've never seen them anywhere else.

They are a really effective, dirt-cheap hazard.  But they aren't going to be acceptable to most golfers in most places.  We probably could have gotten away with them at Old Macdonald, but I don't know that Macdonald ever saw Rye ... and I doubt the sleepers really go back that far there.  I've got a Rye history book in my office, I wonder if it says anything about them?

Here's a photo of the sleeper feature on the 13th at Heathland

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tim Gavrich

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 01:10:20 AM »
Being a huge fan of railroad ties, I'd love to see more of that on golf courses.  I'm very surprised that Pete and PB Dye haven't used them.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 01:22:27 AM »
Being a huge fan of railroad ties, I'd love to see more of that on golf courses.  I'm very surprised that Pete and PB Dye haven't used them.

Tim - I'm pretty sure I have seen this feature on a few other courses... and, I'm fairly certain they were Dye courses. The courses don't readily come to mind, but I think Prestwick CC in Surfside Beach might be one.

I'll give this some thought overnight and maybe the courses will pop into my head.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tim Gavrich

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 01:25:03 AM »
Being a huge fan of railroad ties, I'd love to see more of that on golf courses.  I'm very surprised that Pete and PB Dye haven't used them.

Tim - I'm pretty sure I have seen this feature on a few other courses... and, I'm fairly certain they were Dye courses. The courses don't readily come to mind, but I think Prestwick CC in Surfside Beach might be one.

I'll give this some thought overnight and maybe the courses will pop into my head.


Michael--

That may well be the case.  I am surprised I did not notice any such sleepers at Moorland; they would have fit in perfectly.  I can't remember where they are at Prestwick, but I would not be surprised if there are some.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Sean_A

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 01:44:09 AM »
I do recall Littlestone, just down the road from Rye, has an odd sleeper or two.  Who knows, they may have been there first?  In any case, I don't like them, but I can see where it would save on maintenance.  Think of Rye's 14th.  It should be a shaved hill, but with the sleepers there is no point.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Stephens

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 02:29:50 AM »
During my visit to the Players Club I can remember Adi Stiff had used railway sleepers in a grass bunker on the left of the 14th green. The sleepers are around 2 foot high unlike the one at Rye.

Brancaster has a lot of bunkers with railway sleepers but I cant think of a grass bunker with shallow sleepers there.

Cheers
Ben

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 03:08:22 AM »
Although the ones at Rye may be old, I think they look a bit odd and contrived.

In my opinion, it's easier to accept them if if they were originally on the faces of bunkeres that have since been filled in, or if they are there to provide support and prevent erosion of a steep bank or ridge.

If they were simply put in there with the purpose of blocking a running shot, then why stop at 2-4 inches, why not make them 3-4 feet high? Doesn't this go against the spirit of a running game?

Are they classed as hazards, immovable obstructions, what?

Dónal.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 03:09:32 AM »
Sean's right about Littlestone. I belive there's some  on the rhs of the first Par 5
Ben at Brancaster there's some to the rear of the 18th

Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark Chaplin

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 07:02:15 AM »
The 14th green at Rye was very close to the water I am guessing the sleepers were used to avoid movement in the ground and/or with their placement and prevailing wind - on all 3 holes - they were to stop sand blowing across the greens.

Brancaster uses sleepes on a par 3 around the 4th or 5th?
Cave Nil Vino

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 07:48:09 AM »
Ran
I wrote an article on this subject for our SAGCA 'Golf Architecture' magazine a few years back and had it laid out but we didn't use it. Paul Daley published it in one of his books recently. Here's the article and hope it's of interest.
Neil




John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 08:14:30 AM »
Nice article Neil.  Thanks for sharing it.

One pic of the 7th. 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2010, 08:24:14 AM »
Although the ones at Rye may be old, I think they look a bit odd and contrived.

In my opinion, it's easier to accept them if if they were originally on the faces of bunkeres that have since been filled in, or if they are there to provide support and prevent erosion of a steep bank or ridge.

If they were simply put in there with the purpose of blocking a running shot, then why stop at 2-4 inches, why not make them 3-4 feet high? Doesn't this go against the spirit of a running game?

Are they classed as hazards, immovable obstructions, what?

Dónal.
Donal- I suppose its a opinion if you think good or bad, mine is I like them. In part I agree with you re the ground game, so I think they are best at sides of holes, I think they are quite strongy responsible for making Rye the great course it is.
I have incorporated quite a lot of timber into my designs, one of my first courses Erlestoke had several steps and shelves but against the play, it was at the 7th hole, there is a nice feature at East Devon as well that fronts a green, you dont see it until your on the green..it might be 15.
At other places I have used sleepers up to say 1.5m to create flatter or wider green sites into heavy contours, if you shore up 1.5m then you can 'buy' about 6 metres more width on a green surround.
I like the Doak/Hanse green... it is simple and effective.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2010, 08:59:21 AM »
I thought the 11th hole was worse!

(No sleepers but just as the only poor hole on a great course)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 10:27:11 AM by Bill_McBride »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 09:44:22 AM »
Although the ones at Rye may be old, I think they look a bit odd and contrived.

In my opinion, it's easier to accept them if if they were originally on the faces of bunkeres that have since been filled in, or if they are there to provide support and prevent erosion of a steep bank or ridge.

If they were simply put in there with the purpose of blocking a running shot, then why stop at 2-4 inches, why not make them 3-4 feet high? Doesn't this go against the spirit of a running game?

Are they classed as hazards, immovable obstructions, what?

Dónal.
Donal- I suppose its a opinion if you think good or bad, mine is I like them. In part I agree with you re the ground game, so I think they are best at sides of holes, I think they are quite strongy responsible for making Rye the great course it is.
I have incorporated quite a lot of timber into my designs, one of my first courses Erlestoke had several steps and shelves but against the play, it was at the 7th hole, there is a nice feature at East Devon as well that fronts a green, you dont see it until your on the green..it might be 15.
At other places I have used sleepers up to say 1.5m to create flatter or wider green sites into heavy contours, if you shore up 1.5m then you can 'buy' about 6 metres more width on a green surround.
I like the Doak/Hanse green... it is simple and effective.

Adrian:

I have no problem with their use as long as they are used wisely and do not compromise the natural nature of the hole. I think the ones at Rye look unnatural. It's difficult to define "used wisely" as an opinion on their use is subjective.

Take for example the picture of the 7th at Rye that John M posted. You have a nice gently slope which looks totally natural and it's compromised by these 3-4 inch "eyelids". I haven't played the course, but it appears that there is sufficient slope there to cause difficulty if putting of chipping; the scene is spoiled by those sleepers IMO. It looks totally unnatural.

Sleepers should have a practical purpose or be made to look like they had a practical purpose. As I said before, they could remain in the faces of bunkers that were filled in. They could be used in the faces of grass bunkers; this would give the impression that they may have had a practical purpose (suggesting that there was a sand bunker there previously) in the past. I would be more willing to accept the Rye sleepers if they were in the faces of grass bunkers.

If it's acceptable to put in 3-4 inch sleepers like those at Rye, than what's wrong with putting in a 3-4 inch ridge of grass sod for example, or perhaps a tiny hedge? This would be a bit like something Tom Dunn et al. might have done, but shouldn't it be just as acceptable at sleepers, even though it would look daft. 

Other uses such as you have described above seem quite legitimate to me.

Dónal.

Mike Hendren

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Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 10:47:55 AM »
I have posted on this subject before.  I have not had the good fortune of playing Rye, but I find the features to be an abomination and among the worst architectural elements I'm aware of.  While this surely can't be the case at Rye (can it?) their use suggests the architect is perhaps making up for architectural weaknesses.  What's next - a six inch wide trench around the greens?

Perhaps I'm biased but I don't cotton to any architectural element that can be purchased at Home Depot:


Mike

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 10:52:36 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 11:03:50 AM »
I too have posted on this subject before, and quite clearly disagreed with Mr. Hendren then, and continue to do so now.  As I recall Rich Goodale was on my side... which may not always be a good thing, but in this case was so.

 ;D

Can someone find that prior thread?

Rich and my take came down to this:  in links golf, it's just so normal, and at times boring in terms of overkill, to play everything along the ground... when it is very firm (as it damn near always is), it's just really the one and only percentage play... even pros suck at forcing lofted shots off of that firm turf.  So we all rolll it, with a putter, low iron, hybrid, whatever.  It's fun for sure and different from golf in the States, but again, like most things, too much of a good thing makes it a bad thing.  These sleepers force one to get the ball in the air, and thus are a fun challenge in terms of the difference they provide.

Or something like that.


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 11:11:52 AM »
I too have posted on this subject before, and quite clearly disagreed with Mr. Hendren then, and continue to do so now.  As I recall Rich Goodale was on my side... which may not always be a good thing, but in this case was so.

 ;D

Can someone find that prior thread?

Rich and my take came down to this:  in links golf, it's just so normal, and at times boring in terms of overkill, to play everything along the ground... when it is very firm (as it damn near always is), it's just really the one and only percentage play... even pros suck at forcing lofted shots off of that firm turf.  So we all rolll it, with a putter, low iron, hybrid, whatever.  It's fun for sure and different from golf in the States, but again, like most things, too much of a good thing makes it a bad thing.  These sleepers force one to get the ball in the air, and thus are a fun challenge in terms of the difference they provide.

Or something like that.



try this one TH

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21041.msg379990/

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 11:12:26 AM »
Bogey,
You can also buy grass seed, sand, and water at Home Depot.  If we get rid of all those, what will be left?   ;D

I think the sleepers work just fine at Rye - except for the ones on the 7th hole.  The aesthetics aren't very good and it's not like that hole needed to be more difficult.  When I played the hole, I assumed that they were there for some maintenance reason, not architectural.

Tom Huckaby

Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 11:29:19 AM »
I too have posted on this subject before, and quite clearly disagreed with Mr. Hendren then, and continue to do so now.  As I recall Rich Goodale was on my side... which may not always be a good thing, but in this case was so.

 ;D

Can someone find that prior thread?

Rich and my take came down to this:  in links golf, it's just so normal, and at times boring in terms of overkill, to play everything along the ground... when it is very firm (as it damn near always is), it's just really the one and only percentage play... even pros suck at forcing lofted shots off of that firm turf.  So we all rolll it, with a putter, low iron, hybrid, whatever.  It's fun for sure and different from golf in the States, but again, like most things, too much of a good thing makes it a bad thing.  These sleepers force one to get the ball in the air, and thus are a fun challenge in terms of the difference they provide.

Or something like that.



try this one TH

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21041.msg379990/

BINGO!
Muchas gracias, mi amigo.  It's all in that thread.  Now again, I have never been to Rye so perhaps specifics there change things... but it seems to me that the CONCEPT works.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The sleepers at Rye
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 12:15:19 PM »
Taking this photo for example:  While I have no idea about the length of the approach, let's say it's from some distance.  Imagine the joy of a well played low runner fit perfectly between the two bunkers, only to see it carom wildly after hitting the curb (the term "sleeper" only romanticizes this dubious imposition of man upon nature) .   Alternatively, let's say I've got a pitch from 30 yards out with a strong wind at my back that begs for a low punch that two hops onto the surface.  What to do?   



I know, how about laying a fire hose around the green?  It could be moved daily to yield design elasticity.  How about a traffic cone or two?  Hillbillies like a little chicken wire.  What about a hay bale?  How about just leaving a piece of equipment greenside?  Maybe a few concrete building blocks?  Snow fence?  Chained dog?  Flower bed?  Half-buried tires painted white?  Rusting pickup? 

If I carry a crowbar in my bag could I consider them a movable obstruction?

Come on, man.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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