The sleepers at Rye

[Mike Hendren]

I think the sleepers work just fine at Rye - except for the ones on the 7th hole.  The aesthetics aren't very good and it's not like that hole needed to be more difficult.  When I played the hole, I assumed that they were there for some maintenance reason, not architectural.

The only maintenance reason I can fathom is to justify the purchase of a gas powered string trimmer.

Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

I know, how about laying a fire hose around the green?  It could be moved daily to yield design elasticity.  How about a traffic cone or two?  Hillbillies like a little chicken wire.  What about a hay bale?  How about just leaving a piece of equipment greenside?  Maybe a few concrete building blocks?  Snow fence? 

If you like chicken wire around your greens, you'll love Pennard!  There is a wire around the greens there to keep the grazing livestock off them.

I didn't pay too much attention to the sleepers at Rye, I was too busy blowing a three up lead over "Mayday" Malone to notice any sleepers!

[Adrian_Stiff]

They would be a maintenace headache. Its very subjective I agree, but I remember seeing the pic of the 7th and liking it for those wee fortess's.

[Sean_A]

This is an abomination for two reasons.  A hunk of wood between the bunkers - what the hell?  AND hunks of wood sticking out of the bunkers - what the hell?  Ok, if an archie wants to get cute (too cute if ya ask me), take the bunkers out and leave the hunk of wood. 
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Barnbougle%20Dunes/Rye2.jpg

I don't like the sleepers on Rye's 7th either.  That is a ridiculously hard hole when downwind - there is no need for wood.  Plus, all the shrubery blocking the view isn't clever.  Indeed, I think the 7th is the worst short hole at Rye,  but it needn't be so. 

I just don't see the point of these things.

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

Brancaster has a lot of bunkers with railway sleepers but I cant think of a grass bunker with shallow sleepers there.

I believe Brancaster's sleepers are all structural rather than part of the "design" intent. Here's two examples:

[James Boon]

Just for refrence, here is a picture of the 3rd green at Castle Stuart, where instead of railway sleepers, they used revetted eyebrows instead. Though they use plenty of railway sleepers elsewhere, I can't remember if they actually use any as eyebrows?


Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

Michael H - gas powered strimmers would have been a figment of the imagination when the sleepers were planted at Rye.

[Kalen Braley]

This just may be the mother of all sleepers...although I'm not sure if they strictly qualify!!   

[Bill_McBride]

Here's the 11th hole at the Links at Las Palomas (Forrest Richardson's course in Puerto Penasco, Mexico) to add to Kalen's concrete sleeper theme.  This is one fun downhill par 3.

[Scott Warren]

Rye is, from 1st tee to 18th green, full of quirk. There are plenty of features that "most normal golfers" (whoever they are) wouldn't like.

"They" would probably say the 4th is too narrow for a hole that plays with a crosswind much of the time.
"They" would probably say the bunker faces are too steep for traps so small.
"They" would probably say it's too dry in summer.
"They" would probably say the sleepers don't work.

Tom H's argument about the predictability of the off-green putt has merit, IMO. But do they need to be there for any reason other than to confound the golfer and make him think about how to overcome them?

That's just part of the charm of the place.

Sean: You're Mr Quirk. You don't like the sleepers? I don't believe it for a minute!

Mike W or Tom D: How are the green surrounds maintained at Heathland? It looks like wedge-friendly grass, in which case do the sleepers really force many golfers to change the shot they want to play?

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

There is a lot of short grass around the greens at Heathland, but those sleepers are in an area mowed as rough.  You probably wouldn't putt from that depression anyway, but the little chip is more intimidating with the sleepers there.

We were actually trying to dig a pot bunker over there to start with, but it was a very small area with drainage coming into it from multiple sides, and it kept caving in.  So we went to a grassy hollow, but we wanted it to have some penalty value to it, as a bunker would have.

[Scott Weersing]

I would have never been able to identify a sleeper on a golf course if I had not read this posting. It is amazing the things about golf course architecture you learn on this site.  I did not know that a sleeper was another name for a railroad tie.

[Sean_A]

Rye is, from 1st tee to 18th green, full of quirk. There are plenty of features that "most normal golfers" (whoever they are) wouldn't like.

"They" would probably say the 4th is too narrow for a hole that plays with a crosswind much of the time.
"They" would probably say the bunker faces are too steep for traps so small.
"They" would probably say it's too dry in summer.
"They" would probably say the sleepers don't work.

Tom H's argument about the predictability of the off-green putt has merit, IMO. But do they need to be there for any reason other than to confound the golfer and make him think about how to overcome them?

That's just part of the charm of the place.

Sean: You're Mr Quirk. You don't like the sleepers? I don't believe it for a minute!

Mike W or Tom D: How are the green surrounds maintained at Heathland? It looks like wedge-friendly grass, in which case do the sleepers really force many golfers to change the shot they want to play?

Scott

Alright, I can see giving these things a go just to mess with golfers.  But the one inbetween the bunkers and on Rye's 7th are not the places for them.  I reckon off to the side is a better place for this experiment - like on Rye's 14th.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott as we invented railways I'll content railroad tie is another word for sleeper!

[Mike Hendren]

Given the inclusion of Rye in the Golf Magazine world list, bump.

Clearly my previous posts on the subject are WRONG.

Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

Given the inclusion of Rye in the Golf Magazine world list, bump.

Clearly my previous posts on the subject are WRONG.

Bogey

I've been lucky enough to have several trips around Rye.   Those little eyebrows could be annoying but had to be dealt with perhaps a deft pitch or even, horrors, a shot away from the hole.   Otherwise there are many fun shots and a routing that takes advantage of a dune line perhaps better than any other course I've played.  You play on top, into, over and around it, absolutely spectacular.

[Mike Hendren]

So live trees are "stupid" yet if we chop them up and stick them in the ground with only the top exposed they're good architecture?

What if they incorporated the polar opposite - a 30 feet high wall with a two feet opening at the ground?

Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

So live trees are "stupid" yet if we chop them up and stick them in the ground with only the top exposed they're good architecture?

What if they incorporated the polar opposite - a 30 feet high wall with a two feet opening at the ground?

Bogey

I said 'annoying' but not fatal.

There is a 30 foot 'wall' you have to hit over but it's a dune on your second at the 13th.  The shot is blind, wait until you hear the bell before playing.   Or not in some cases.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I have a tee time there tomorrow and, for the benefit of this thread, will check the health of the sleepers.

Ulrich

[Mike Hendren]

Ulrich,  please inquire if they spray for termites.

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

This is one of those little things that made Rye unique.  Some people will love them and some will hate them, but clearly it adds a bit of character to the course.  [You could say the same for the wall at North Berwick, though that feature pre-dates the golf course, whereas the eyebrows at Rye are an addition.]

For better or worse, I think more and more golf course raters are looking for something different.  The sleepers make Rye different than, say, Deal.

[Brent Hutto]

How about those little "eyebrow" mini-sleepers at Castle Stuart. I kind of thought those were a cool feather, especially on (if my memory is correct) that drivable Par 4 where the bailout area was over to the left and the eyebrows may or may not impact your choice of shot.

[Niall C]

Maybe its time to rehabilitate the reputation of all those old dead guys who built turf walls amongst other hazards. Perhaps if Gil Hanse built one of those today they would be proclaimed as the coming of a new age in golf course design.

Niall

[George_Bahto]

At one point, the short 6th at NGLA had sleepers holding up the face oh the main bunker just after bunker re-build, but these were in place to stabilize the bunker face until it matured.

[Michael Whitaker]

I played Rye for the first time a few weeks ago and found the "eyebrows" an interesting quirk, but not particularly troublesome. As I remember they basically just take the putter out of your hand and force you to put a little air under the ball. I'm not sure that is good or bad... it is what it is.

My thoughts were about the origin of the "eyebrows." I'd really like to know why they were created in the first place. According to Neil's article the first eyebrows were created in '38 by Sir Guy Campbell. Why? What was his inspiration? Had he seen this somewhere before or created something similar before?

I agree with Sean that the Frida Kahlo style eyebrow between the bunkers on #2 is a bit of an overkill, but I'm not overly troubled by it. I do think, however, we give a lot of this stuff a pass because it is old. I had to smile when I first saw the eyebrows at Castle Stuart... seemed to be just another tick of a box on a design list of talking points.