Architects are smarter than golfers

[Jaeger Kovich]

Good thing Stephen Hawkings doesn't play golf!!!

In all seriousness, we do have a Nobel Prize winner at my club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Instead of asking for other examples, maybe you could name one hole at Seminole that meets the criteria you laid out in the opening post...

Let's start with # 1, # 2, # 3, # 4 and # 5

I think just about every bunker that looks like it is right next to the green is, in fact, right next to the green...
Could you name the holes where the bunkers are adjacent to the putting surface ?
Take all the time you need.

Sure, the greens are crowned and deflect balls, but there's no illusion otherwise...unless of course you're playing at night...

When was the last time you played Seminole ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Donald Ross's configuration of the greens and green surrounds at Seminole form a brilliant deception, a deception that fools golfers over and over again.

The deception consists of three parts.
Part one is a green crowned such that the perimeter feeds/deflects balls off the green."

Pat:

I hope you're aware that there is one very prominent architect (who also belongs to Seminole) who definitely does not think what you call crowned greens at Seminole was Ross's work at all.


I''m aware of a number of things that the person you reference has claimed.
In light of the same crowned green's feature at Pinehurst, until hard evidence is presented, I"m content to accept those greens as Ross's ,especially since I'm in possession of copies of the original field drawings of all 18 greens (the revised # 18 being the exception)

[JC Jones]

I swear, they pass these Ross drawings of Seminole out like candy.  Only I dont know where the store is!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

There is some separation...about 3 feet of what is called "apron" and another 3 - 6 feet of grass that's called 'the face of the bunker'...I'm wondering how many times this has deceived Pat...

Jim,

You're teaching us something new.

Since when is six feet of grass now part of the face of a sand bunker ?

I always thought that any grass outside of a sand bunker wasn't considered part of the sand bunker, when did you change the definition ?

And, when was the last time you played Seminole ?
Why have you been reluctant to answer that question ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I swear, they pass these Ross drawings of Seminole out like candy.  Only I dont know where the store is!!

JC,

Had you had the good sense to purchast "The Story of Seminole" when you were there, you could have seen them for yourself.
They are contained in the book, along with PHOTOS that clearly show the offset nature of the bunkering I referenced.

Perhaps if someone showed them to Jim Sullivan, he could recollect what he's obviously forgotten or didn't observe on his collective visits

[JESII]

Pat,

You're limping into this one...albeit, wielding much loved the green paint...

I'm sure this will be an interesting conversation about some course out there, but Seminole just doesn't qualify.

Could someone post the Google Earth view of Seminole? Thanks very much in advance.

If you don't think the vertical grass face of a flat bottom (or close to it) bunker is considered the face of that bunker so be it, but if that's the "offset" from the greens at Seminole you are referring to, I'd have to ask how you make it through each day...

[JC Jones]

Pat,

You have to continue to pour salt in that wound, dont you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You're limping into this one...albeit, wielding much loved the green paint...

I'm sure this will be an interesting conversation about some course out there, but Seminole just doesn't qualify.

Could someone post the Google Earth view of Seminole? Thanks very much in advance.

If you don't think the vertical grass face of a flat bottom (or close to it) bunker is considered the face of that bunker so be it, but if that's the "offset" from the greens at Seminole you are referring to, I'd have to ask how you make it through each day...

Jim,

I think I see the problem.

I"ve never heard Seminole's bunkers refered to a "flat bottomed bunkers".  In fact, I can't think of a more mislabled feature.

If that's how you describe the bunkers at Seminole, I can see how you're confused.

When was the last time you played Seminole ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, people go for tucked pins at Seminole because they want the high the one time in ten they actually make the shot, and ignore the risk. 

In light of the extreme difficulty in recovering to a short side hole location, I disagree with that.
I believe that the deception is brilliant, functional, repeated and effective because the deception is so well conceived and presented.
Golfer's have short memories and they tend to live in the present, discarding harsh memories, and hoping for new conquests and successes

What fun is it to play to the middle of the green? 

It's plenty of fun when you're left with a relatively short birdie putt, and better still when you see another golfer suffering a dire fate caused by errant judgement, play or both

But, I don't think it's about deception and stupidity. 

We disagree, at Seminole, it's all about deception

But, architects are smart in this regard.  They know many players will take the risk and they design for it.

The beauty of Ross's decepton is that the shots I'm describing don't appear to be risky, that's the genius of his deception

[JESII]

Pat,

How would you describe Seminole's bunkering as opposed to my use of flat bottom?

What would you call the grass face of the bunkers there?

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Pat,

Here are four of Seminole's greens. Can you explain to me how the bunkers are more offset here than at other courses?

[Sean_A]

Hi Pat,

Here are four of Seminole's greens. Can you explain to me how the bunkers are more offset here than at other courses?

Garland

The greens in the lower right part of the aerial look to have at least one off-set bunker each - imo.  I think this is somewhat rare, at least in the US.  I think they can work really well in firm conditions.  They often require players to be very precise with running approaches thus heightening the importance of accurate driving.  This sort of thing very much fits with the "indirect penalty" so favoured by proponents of "strategic" design.

The lower right green has an unusual (for Ross) rear green bunker.  Is that a Ross bunker?  

Finally, the holes in the aerial look to be VERY tight because of the bunkers in conjunction with the angled greens.  Are the fairways generously wide?

Ciao    

[JESII]

Sean,

Do you think that "offset" bunker in the right picture would help to form some sort of deception? Perhaps enticing you to aiming more directly at a right side hole location...It is about 15 yards from nearest point to nearest point of the green.

As to fairway width...they are more than adequate...35 to 45 yards wide as a guess.

[Garland Bayley]

Sean,

The offset bunker you identify clearly is not one that Pat is referring to. There is no deception with that bunker. No one will think they are safe by playing inside of it since they will clearly see that playing inside it means they are playing at the greenside bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland & Jim,

You're correct, flying at 20,000 feet and looking straight down there's not a lot of deception, but, from the golfer's eyes, as he stands in the fairway, the deception is substantive.

Jim, why have you continued to avoid answering my question ?
When was the last time you played Seminole ?

[Sean_A]

Jim & Garland

It is impossible for me to tell about deception without ground level pix.  For one, I don't know if the bunkers are set at the same height.  For another, I can't tell how that rear bunker effects the eye.  Generally speaking, when bunkers funnel down they give the appearance of the landing zone being more narrow than it really is.  This may get guys to want to make sure to fly the green, but then there is a rear bunker waiting.  It may also encourage guys to play a draw off the bunker ans we all know that draws can easily turn into hooks - especially if playing into a headwind.  It would be a lot better if there were ground level pix.

Ciao

[JESII]

Sean,

I don't have any ground level pics but someone might.


The hole you're looking at is the 10th. I don't think you can see the back bunker until you get to the green...but that is not to say you wouldn't know it's there.


"Generally speaking, when bunkers funnel down they give the appearance of the landing zone being more narrow than it really is."

I would agree, but it seems to be at odds with what Pat is suggesting.



Pat,

Is the basis of this "deception" the idea that the grass face of the bunkers appear (either conciously or subconciously) less intimidating than a sand face and therefore the player is more willing to challenge a hole cut close to it? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Sullivan,

I won't respond to any questions you pose until you respond and tell us when you last played Seminole.

[JESII]

The odds of a productive conversation just went up several thousand percent...

[JESII]

Generally speaking, when bunkers funnel down they give the appearance of the landing zone being more narrow than it really is.  This may get guys to want to make sure to fly the green...
Ciao

Sean,

Let's explore this appearance because it must be the basis of the deception Pat is thinking of...although he's taken completely opposite of you.

Do rounded edges (of the green or bunker lip) seem less clear so to be safe you want to avoid them a little more than the sharp edges?

[JESII]

The suggestion in the opening post of this thread is that players are more likely to aim for perimeter hole locations at Seminole because the grass face of the bunkers gives them comfort, visually. Once a player hits what they think to be a good shot, near the edge of the green, the ball invariable filters off the green, down the slope and into the bunker...potentially onto the downslope on the far side of the bunker.

This close, and penal green/bunker relationship repeats itself on most every hole at Seminole although a good percentage of the time the ball just filters into a low chipping area. Most every green surface is raised at least a foot or two above the immediate surrounds.

I contend that if you aim for a pin and miss a foot shortside and deal with the results, you will not think lightly of it ever again at Seminole. It doesn't mean you will not try it, but if you do it will not be due to some form of deception.

[Sean_A]

The suggestion in the opening post of this thread is that players are more likely to aim for perimeter hole locations at Seminole because the grass face of the bunkers gives them comfort, visually. Once a player hits what they think to be a good shot, near the edge of the green, the ball invariable filters off the green, down the slope and into the bunker...potentially onto the downslope on the far side of the bunker.

This close, and penal green/bunker relationship repeats itself on most every hole at Seminole although a good percentage of the time the ball just filters into a low chipping area. Most every green surface is raised at least a foot or two above the immediate surrounds.

I contend that if you aim for a pin and miss a foot shortside and deal with the results, you will not think lightly of it ever again at Seminole. It doesn't mean you will not try it, but if you do it will not be due to some form of deception.

Sully

I thought Mucci was saying that sloped nature of the run-offs to off-set bunkers (presumably leaving a slightly longer bunker shot where the player has to do a bit more than pop the ball straight up and out) is the deceiving aspect.  Couldn't the run-offs lead to a sand flashed bunker and essentially do the same thing?  Though perhaps some people may be comforted by not getting a get view of sand. 

My comment about the funneling was only really about the far right hole which looks like it is meant to work in conjunction with the water left to give the appearance of a narrow shot.  The other holes don't have that sort of bunkering effect, but again, its hard to know without ground level shots. 

Ciao

[JESII]

Maybe he can clrify Sean because the nature of the bunkers at Seminole is that they are right against the greens edge...the one you were referencing in the image has no chance of catching a ball that has any chance of hitting the green.

I think his point was that the green grass face of the slope into the bunkers give golfers comfort (because it's not sand) and therefore makes them more likely to aim for a perimeter hole location...perhaps he'll calrify.

In one sense I agree...grass is a less intimidating visual...but as per my posts, every green at Seminole does this and if you fall for it beyond the first green on your first round...well, lets just say you are easily deceived...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Maybe he can clrify Sean because the nature of the bunkers at Seminole is that they are right against the greens edge...

That's just not true, and I'll stake my memory of having been there less than a week ago to your recollections from 8 years ago.
I paced off many of the bunkers and a good number were five yards removed from the green.
What you also fail to understand, because you might be relying on the aerial, is how the shot looks from the golfer's eye, as he stands in the DZ in the fairway, preparing for his approach shot

the one you were referencing in the image has no chance of catching a ball that has any chance of hitting the green.

I think his point was that the green grass face of the slope into the bunkers give golfers comfort (because it's not sand) and therefore makes them more likely to aim for a perimeter hole location...perhaps he'll calrify.

It's the combination of the perimeter of the green, the base of the crowned slope in combination with the grass faces that give the golfer false comfort and misleading margins of error.

Seminole is one of the few courses I've played that easily transitions a marginally errant approach shot into the same position as a wildly errant shot, and the beauty and genius of the course is that few recognize the visual deception, the insidious trap

In one sense I agree...grass is a less intimidating visual...but as per my posts, every green at Seminole does this and if you fall for it beyond the first green on your first round...well, lets just say you are easily deceived...

I don't buy that because the presentation differs on each hole, and thus, the golfer thinks he'll be successful on succeeding holes.
I've witnessed good, mediocre and poor players fall victim to this deception, over and over and over again.

I even watched golfers putt OFF the greens, left, right and long, when putting UPHILL
They made slight errors in judgement or execution or a combination of both and suffered a dire fate.

The same applies to the visual deceipt in conjunction with the above.

The unique relationship of the putting surface, surrounds, slopes, bunkers, bunker configuration and bunker location brilliantly conspire to thwart even the best of golfers, repetitively.